The flimsy foundation of ME

[skypair]

The fact is, you can build just about any bizarre and false doctrine you like on parables, symbols, and innuendo.

Be careful, npetreley -- with the brush you are using on ME, you ought to also paint Calvinism!

skypair

 

[jne1611]

Can the blood keep me from chastisement? Can the blood guarantee that I will be rewarded with ten cities and not five and not few stripes and not many stripes?



What is ithe "much" that is "given", if it is not first eternal salvation, and then gifts of the Holy Ghost? Surely this whole passage refers to a saved "servant"!

What is the rule "over all that he hath" that the obedient "find-so-doing" servant stands to get when the Lord "cometh" if not the reward of ruling and reigning in the Kingdom?

And what is the "portion with the unbelievers", the few stripes, and the many stripes, threatened here (When he cometh) for the same servant if he instead stops watching, if not some serious chastening at the JSOC?

Lacy

I do not believe this man to be saved. Yes he is a servant, so was Judas, so was Nebakanezer, etc. they were not saved. Christ even said that Judas that delivered him up had the GREATER sin. Judas will not be at the JSOS. A portion with the unbelievers is the same as a part. Look at Rev. 21:8. there are no saints there. And Christ never defined his sheep as unbelievers as the ungodly & so fit for hell.

 

[Lazarus]

So don't show me a free gift verse to refute the theology of winning the "prize"

I wanted to show you this last night but it was late.

I't seems that ME rests its position on paul's picture of a runner winning a race.

1Co 9:24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

However this prize is a crown the winner will be given. It has nothing to do with the looser spending 1000 years in outer darkness.

Barnes Commentary puts it like this:

Paul illustrates the general sentiment on which he had been dwelling-- the duty of practicing self-denial for the salvation of others--by a reference to the well-known games which were celebrated near Corinth. Throughout the chapter, his object had been to show that in declining to receive a support for preaching, he had done it, not because he was conscious that he had no claim to it, but because by doing it he could better advance the salvation of men, the furtherance of the gospel, and, in his peculiar case, (#1Co 9:16,17,) could obtain better evidence, and furnish to others better evidence that he was actuated by a sincere desire to honour God in the Gospel. He had denied himself. He had voluntarily submitted to great privations. He had had a great object in view in doing it. And he now says, that in the well-known athletic games at Corinth, the same thing was done by the racers, (#1Co 9:24,) and by wrestlers, or boxers, #1Co 9:25. If they had done it, for objects so comparatively unimportant as the attainment of an earthly garland, assuredly it was proper for him to do it to obtain a crown which should never fade away.

 

[jne1611]

Funny thing about it, those who try to prove that you can become unsaved use these same verses.

They at least do not shut their eyes to the fact that these passages are warnings given to saved people.

If I thought I had to use for an example, those who do not believe in the truth of God's free grace to prop my point, I would get a clue.

 

[skypair]

Lazarus let me ask you a question or two then. How do you reconcile Scripture that says salvation is by God's grace through faith apart from works with the Scripture that says salvation is through a faith that produces works?

Those two are contextually opposed to each other.

That's dishonest, JJ. Like I tell the Calvinists, Rom 4:5 -- "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

You know Calvinists also have an "issue" with works. They just don't go to the extreme of saying that a believer can go to hell without works. They're take is that he/she just lacks salvation or lacks assurance.

skypair

 

[Lazarus]

How do you reconcile Scripture that says salvation is by God's grace through faith apart from works with the Scripture that says salvation is through a faith that produces works?

Please show me this scripture.

Blessings and it's time for Church so I'll be back this afternoon.

 

[skypair]

So here's a couple of my followup questions for you. Let's say that John is saved at age 12. He lives a "Christian" life until he goes off to college, and then at college he falls into the typical college sin of drunkeness and fornicality. So John goes four years of college without even a second thought regarding his behavior. And let's say that during a graduation party John gets plastered and gets behind the wheel of a car and on his way home plows into a family of four and everyone dies, John included.

1. Is John saved.

2. And if John is saved then what happens to John at the JSOC?

Yes, John is saved, but John committed a "sin unto death." Fini' -- end of story. John can't be punished in the flesh anymore. Not in earthly flesh and not in glorified flesh.

John goes to the JSOC in heaven and his SPIRIT is "tested SO AS BY fire" and John comes through saved and with a perfect "mind of Christ" purged of it's old thoughts and errors (like, even his belief in ME got cleansed!).

You know -- it's kind of a ghastly thing for you ME-ers to send the "bride" of Christ to hell on her wedding night!!

skypair

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Are you a prophet sir?, Able to judge the deepest secrets of men?

This is terrible form. You ask him a question. He gives you an honest answer. Then you come back with this judgmental "I know you better than you know you" junk! I think you have become too emotionally involved in this topic, because that was just mean.

Lacy

His answer being honest is your opinion, and not necessarily fact. As a matter of fact, since the Word of God teaches that all who come to Christ will not be ashamed, his answer and your opinion of his answer mean nothing in light of God's Holy Word.

 

[skypair]

What you are saying is that unless you produce the right kind of works then you aren't saved. That is simply a backloaded works-based plan of salvation.

I like a lot of what you said to Lazarus but here's the problem -- to you, the person who is saved with no works isn't saved from anything! He/she already has eternal life or existence -- though it be in hell without a body. And he or she is not, according to you, saved from hell, the very place that the lost, Satan, and his devils go. So what really are those who "believe" saved from?

The Bible doesn't save if you believed you will do x,y,z for the rest of your life. There is simply no Biblical grounds for that church tradition.

No, but you are making one yourself.

What is happening here is that people are seeing a problem with the "sinner's prayer," (and I'm not a sinner's prayer guy myself), but instead of returning to the Biblical center those opposed to the sinner's prayer are swinging in almost the opposite direction and saying if you said a prayer you aren't saved or you probably aren't saved.

Good point for Calvinists to note.

Lazarus I will leave you with this encouragement. I would at least test the church tradition that you have been sold

You have the same one with a few nuances, JJ. IN SPADES, in fact! You not only justify the "Calvinist 'Lordship' gospel," you justify the Catholics as well!!

skypair

and see if it stands up to the test of Scripture and I think you might be surprised at how much has to fall by the way side. Trust me it's a tough thing to do, but it is well worth it![/QUOTE]

 

[Dr. Bob]

Been reminded that the word "heresy" is being thrown around loosely. While I believe ME is totally erroneous view of prophecy/last times, I refrain from used the dreaded "h" word.

This is BB policy. If I don't want an amill to be able to call us pre-tribbers "heretics", I must use the same restraint.

Thank you. But please continue to show the error of the ME position. :applause:

(and to link Calvinism to the ME error is ludicrous)

 

[J. Jump]

You know -- it's kind of a ghastly thing for you ME-ers to send the "bride" of Christ to hell on her wedding night!!

There is another church tradition fallacy, thinking that the entire church will make up the bride of Christ. This is simply not supported in Scripture in the OT or NT.

 

[J. Jump]

However this prize is a crown the winner will be given.

So what happens to those people who allow someone to take their crown away or simply lose their crown on their own?

 

[skypair]

There are very clear warnings that Christians who commit certain things and fail to repent are in danger of being excluded from the Kingdom. ("Hell/outer darkness" issue aside)

The following verses are addressed directly to believers and are very plain.

Note: I will insert commentary in BLUE.


1 Corinthians 6:6-10
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
[Clearly not addressed to anyone but a believer.]
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:[who?] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[The they is simply "they". The verse is directed to Christians.]

Ephesians 5:1-7
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[WHY?]
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
[Because if you partake with them you will get a portion with them!]


Luke 12:42-48
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart,
[Same hypothetical servant. Still saved. Just behaving differently]
My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Lacy --- these are "discernment" passages. They are for discerning who are believers and who are not.

And as you probably notice, some of them cut "close to the bone" -- envying, strife, heresy, foolish talk, jesting. Are you ready to put down the stone yet, "Mr/Ms Pharisee?" What they are talking about is CONTINUOUS sinning in these. True believers ought to be "corrected" with such comparisons and repent -- unblelievers won't.

Heresies, for example. When one is shown the spiritual truth but continues in error embracing ever more tightly the "doctrines of men." Where is ths spiritual vision of such a person?? Can he/she not tell the "mustard tree" from the "birds," Mt 13:32 (This may be my favorite illustration because the tree is of Christ but the birds in our brnaches are of the devil.) You know, in the OT Jesus said not to pull up the tares until the end. But to the church, Paul says we need to "ostracize" the sinner -- turn them over to Satan -- from out of the kingdom! That is part of God's chastening and, as I have told you before, this is the "hell" you think believers must experience only after this life.

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

(and to link Calvinism to the ME error is ludicrous)

Amen! Because one is Truth and one is not. I let everyone decide which is which :laugh:.

 

[skypair]

Rather continue a long and fruitless debate, I refer you here J Jump and company.

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/predestination.htm

We must discuss this ("eternal covenant," etal.) on another thread, Lazzie. I don't see your "eternal covenant."

skypair

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

There is another church tradition fallacy, thinking that the entire church will make up the bride of Christ. This is simply not supported in Scripture in the OT or NT.

The entire church 'will' make up the bride of Christ, however what comprises 'the entire church' is what needs to be defined. See the link I posted on the true church.

Also, I have seen your position on requiring people to go IN to the lake of fire or some other such place for 1000 years, but I have not seen your position on how they get OUT of it. In every case I know of in the Bible the future retribution is always eternal. Just so I can be straight on this could you please explain the requirements for exiting. It can't merely be time limited because God is not limited to time, if He were to send someone there, it would be because they owe him something, and scripture abundantly teaches that we can never pay our own debt.


BGTF

 

[J. Jump]

The entire church 'will' make up the bride of Christ

BGTF welcome to the discussion. Let's take one thing at a time. Since you brought up this, let's deal with this first. Do you have Scripture from the OT and NT alike that indicates that the entire church will make up the bride?

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

BGTF welcome to the discussion. Let's take one thing at a time. Since you brought up this, let's deal with this first. Do you have Scripture from the OT and NT alike that indicates that the entire church will make up the bride?

Isa 43:18-21

18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

19 Behold, I will do a new thing ; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
KJV


John 6:37-40

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Since most of the visible church today is of the lukewarm variety and will be spewed out, please don't forget to read my working definition of the true church posted here.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund60.htm

Now back to you to answer my previous question.



BGTF

 

[npetreley]

Been reminded that the word "heresy" is being thrown around loosely. While I believe ME is totally erroneous view of prophecy/last times, I refrain from used the dreaded "h" word.

I'll refrain from using the "h" word, but ME is another gospel, one of works. IMO, that qualifies as the "h" word, whereas pre-trib and other doctrines with which I disagree do not.

 

[skypair]

There is another church tradition fallacy, thinking that the entire church will make up the bride of Christ. This is simply not supported in Scripture in the OT or NT.

Tradition be damned, JJ! Read your Bible, will you?!

Mt 25:1-13 shows 10 virgins. Five will be "bride" -- because they have the Spirit/oil. Five, you're right, are still lost though they attend church, etal. That doesn't mean that the "foolish five" go to hell for 1000 years --- it means they go through the 7 year tribulation.

You sure got a lot to learn before you start trying to teach orthodoxy to the rest of us!

skypair