The flimsy foundation of ME

[Lacy Evans]

Hell has no claim on them. The blood is more powerful than that.

Can the blood keep me from chastisement? Can the blood guarantee that I will be rewarded with ten cities and not five and not few stripes and not many stripes?

Luke 12:43-48
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

What is ithe "much" that is "given", if it is not first eternal salvation, and then gifts of the Holy Ghost? Surely this whole passage refers to a saved "servant"!

What is the rule "over all that he hath" that the obedient "find-so-doing" servant stands to get when the Lord "cometh" if not the reward of ruling and reigning in the Kingdom?

And what is the "portion with the unbelievers", the few stripes, and the many stripes, threatened here (When he cometh) for the same servant if he instead stops watching, if not some serious chastening at the JSOC?

Lacy

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

This is my first post, nothing like JJumping right in.

So here's a couple of my followup questions for you. Let's say that John is saved at age 12. He lives a "Christian" life until he goes off to college, and then at college he falls into the typical college sin of drunkeness and fornicality. So John goes four years of college without even a second thought regarding his behavior. And let's say that during a graduation party John gets plastered and gets behind the wheel of a car and on his way home plows into a family of four and everyone dies, John included.

1. Is John saved.

2. And if John is saved then what happens to John at the JSOC?

Instead of using a strawman, why not go right to the Bible and just replace the name 'John' with 'Solomon' (1 Kings 11:1-13 noting the timing in his life from verse 4)? Where is Solomon now? Is he saved?

At the JSOC Solomon will lose some of his rewards because of his backsliding, but he has eternal life.


BGTF

 

[Lacy Evans]

Amen! The very concept is outrageous. That blood washed, born again, forgiven, sanctified, complete in Christ, Spirit indwelt, eternally secure and every thing else that we have in God's GREAT salvation will spend any time in hell at all is preposterous!

All those things. Like the Hebrew Christian had. Still the warnings couldn't be any more plain.

Hebrews 6:4-12
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[npetreley]

Instead of using a strawman, why not go right to the Bible and just replace the name 'John' with 'Solomon' (1 Kings 11:1-13 noting the timing in his life from verse 4)? Where is Solomon now? Is he saved?

At the JSOC Solomon will lose some of his rewards because of his backsliding, but he has eternal life.


BGTF

Welcome! You need to watch out, though. The ME con men will say that Soloman DOES have eternal life, but may spend 1,000 years in hell, first. On the other hand, in the next breath, they will say that "eternal life" is not eternal at all, but age-lasting, which means it only lasts 1,000 years. It's a no-win situation, since they whip out whatever meaning for "eternal" they want in order to perpetuate their heresy.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Welcome! You need to watch out, though. The ME con men will say that Soloman DOES have eternal life, but may spend 1,000 years in hell, first. On the other hand, in the next breath, they will say that "eternal life" is not eternal at all, but age-lasting, which means it only lasts 1,000 years. It's a no-win situation, since they whip out whatever meaning for "eternal" they want in order to perpetuate their heresy.

Actually we do what all good students should and "whip out" whatever dictionary definition of the word fits the context, rather than try to bludgeoningly force one definition of a word upon every context.

Lacy

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Welcome! You need to watch out, though. The ME con men will say that Soloman DOES have eternal life, but may spend 1,000 years in hell, first. On the other hand, in the next breath, they will say that "eternal life" is not eternal at all, but age-lasting, which means it only lasts 1,000 years. It's a no-win situation, since they whip out whatever meaning for "eternal" they want in order to perpetuate their heresy.

Thanks for the heads up. I guess it will be just like trying to nail Jello to a wall.

One of the surest tests of a false religion or cult is that they have no assurance of salvation. Not sure why someone would want to live like that when the Bible explicitly tells you otherwise.


BGTF

 

[npetreley]

Thanks for the heads up. I guess it will be just like trying to nail Jello to a wall.

One of the surest tests of a false religion or cult is that they have no assurance of salvation. Not sure why someone would want to live like that when the Bible explicitly tells you otherwise.

BGTF

Again, they get around that by saying you have assurance of your eternal life AFTER the millennium.

It's a very clever system of deceit, I'll have to give them that much credit. They're careful to dance between two "gospels", one where you simply believe to get eternal life (as in forever), and one where you have to do good works to get eternal life (as in 1,000 years).

If you challenge them on one, they simply shift to the other and say you're wrong. If you corner them, they simply say, "Precisely! You proved my point!" This leaves you scratching your head wondering what in the lake of fire they're talking about, because you really contradicted their point, not proved it. But when all else is lost, confusion is their goal.

I hope we see the day when they're all kicked off the board. That may never happen, but it would do BB a lot of good. This works-based gospel heresy should be squashed without mercy.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

In the past, JJump has always told people to pm him and he would go one on one with them and explain the whole nine yards of this message they preach.

My problem with that is, why one on one? Why not post every single thing they think proves their point in the main threads so all can benefit?

God is not a respector of persons when it comes to sharing the truth, why should they be?

I think we all know the answer to that.

 

[npetreley]

I agree. Anything you have to explain in PM obviously can't stand the light of day.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Again, they get around that by saying you have assurance of your eternal life AFTER the millennium.

It's a very clever system of deceit, I'll have to give them that much credit. They're careful to dance between two "gospels", one where you simply believe to get eternal life (as in forever), and one where you have to do good works to get eternal life (as in 1,000 years).

If you challenge them on one, they simply shift to the other and say you're wrong. If you corner them, they simply say, "Precisely! You proved my point!" This leaves you scratching your head wondering what in the lake of fire they're talking about, because you really contradicted their point, not proved it. But when all else is lost, confusion is their goal.

I hope we see the day when they're all kicked off the board. That may never happen, but it would do BB a lot of good. This works-based gospel heresy should be squashed without mercy.

Sounds like you have been around the block a few times with them.

Their arguments are just like any other cult. It's 'full and present' assurance that the Bible gives us.

Nevertheless, their belief system is required, for if one had only the choice to believe the truth and nothing else, then everyone would be saved. False systems of religion are merely a mechanism to sort out the wheat from the chaff.


BGTF

 

[npetreley]

Here's a sample of the double-talk you get from ME folks. They have claimed all of the following are true:

1. We believers have eternal life by grace through faith plus nothing.

2. We believers must earn eternal life by works. If we do not do good works, we will suffer eternal damnation in the lake of fire/hell.

3. If we, as believers, have any unconfessed sin when we die, we will spend eternity in the lake of fire/hell.

4. The above are different aspects of a single gospel.

5. The above are actually two or more gospels, including the gospel of grace, and the gospel of the kingdom. (They ignore Paul's warning that if anyone preach another gospel, which is no gospel at all, let him be accursed.)

6. There are at least 3 salvations we must obtain by grace and by works.

7. Justification is entirely by works. There is no answer to the fact that the Bible says God is the one who justifies, and that by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. It is as if these verses do not exist. Only the misrepresented verse in James exists.

8. Romans 8, in reference to "if God is for us, who can be against us?", asks the question, "Who is he who condemns?" ME folk actually insist this passage says it is Christ who condemns! (I kid you not!)

9. We have our own righteousness apart from the righteousness of Christ, and our righteousness is what qualifies us for eternal life.

10. Ignoring all of the passages about how we are not in bondage again to fear, and the perfect love casts out all fear because fear has to do with punishment (which we will not experience) -- ME folk claim that the "good" reason for threatening to send us to eternal damnation in hell is that fear will make us behave.


[Warning: Like the ME folk, I have used "eternal" and "1,000 years" interchangeably. What's good for the goose...]

 

[Hope of Glory]

1. The Elect of God will be in glory, not worrying about a layover in outerdarkness.

Well, that's something upon which we agree.

 

[Hope of Glory]

2. To all these Christians who were undoubtedly at different levels in their spiritual growth, Paul offers the identical hope, "When Christ who is our life appears, we shall appear with him in glory." There's no layover in this amazing passage of Scripture.

3. We ought to muse over it for days.

Let's see... To whom is this addressed?

Colossians 1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is addressed to those saved individuals who are being faithful and have an outward showing of that faith.

We should muse on that, when we muse upon who will appear with him in glory.

Now, this passage does not exclude others, in and of itself, but neither does it include others. So, it can only be used for "saints and faithful brethren". (Matthew 12:50 tells us that brethren are those who are being obedient, but Jesus was a legalist according to some, since, since, according to them, we don't need to be obedient.)

 

[Hope of Glory]

Can the blood keep me from chastisement? Can the blood guarantee that I will be rewarded with ten cities and not five and not few stripes and not many stripes?



What is ithe "much" that is "given", if it is not first eternal salvation, and then gifts of the Holy Ghost? Surely this whole passage refers to a saved "servant"!

What is the rule "over all that he hath" that the obedient "find-so-doing" servant stands to get when the Lord "cometh" if not the reward of ruling and reigning in the Kingdom?

And what is the "portion with the unbelievers", the few stripes, and the many stripes, threatened here (When he cometh) for the same servant if he instead stops watching, if not some serious chastening at the JSOC?

Lacy

Funny thing about it, those who try to prove that you can become unsaved use these same verses.

They at least do not shut their eyes to the fact that these passages are warnings given to saved people.

 

[Hope of Glory]

In the past, JJump has always told people to pm him and he would go one on one with them and explain the whole nine yards of this message they preach.

My problem with that is, why one on one? Why not post every single thing they think proves their point in the main threads so all can benefit?

I will tell you exactly why.

I converse with many people privately. Some of them, I PM. Some of them are on the "other" side of this debate, but we can have a rational, adult discussion, minus the outright lies, name-calling, and **insutl removed** when it is done privately.

Others PM me wanting information, but they are afraid of being attacked by the lies, name-calling, and vituperousness of others, and don't want the confrontation.

If an individual think their position is just, why do they resort to lies? TC Greek, even though we are at odds on this discussion, behaves righteously and debates in an adult, rational manner without resorting to lies and name-calling. There are a few others.

Sadly, a few look at the outright lies being perpetuated by npetreley (and a couple of others) and actually believe they are things that we have said. My only consolation is that some who have PMed me have done so specifially because of his behavior, and has made them wonder why he would be so irrational. (I think maybe he's feeling some conviction going on!)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The truth be told, when you take them to pm, they are not distracted by the truth going on in the main thread that God wants them to hear.

 

[Jarthur001]

What?

This is about the biggest load of double talk I've heard in a long time. I'm dizzy.

I see you are new here. Being dizzy from some of the post is just part of this board. Try to back him into a corner and your laptop will actually spin around the room 3 times...a pretty cool trick.

 

[Lazarus]

Do you believe in salvational security?

I believe in eternal security!

Good Morning

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen. He is faithful who promised. He will keep you and in no wise cast you out if you are His (contrary to the ME doctrine).

 

[Lacy Evans]

The truth be told, when you take them to pm, they are not distracted by the truth going on in the main thread that God wants them to hear.

Are you a prophet sir?, Able to judge the deepest secrets of men?

This is terrible form. You ask him a question. He gives you an honest answer. Then you come back with this judgmental "I know you better than you know you" junk! I think you have become too emotionally involved in this topic, because that was just mean.

Lacy