No one has ever been able to get the job done without the word of God. Ever
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The foundation of our faith
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
go2church
but you are with your comments.
Before the fall man communed with God and there was direct communication.
Because of the fall into sin and death man lost this ability to commune with God directly as sin separated man from God.
The effects of the fall left man with a distorted and perverted view of God and His creation.
Without scripture it was no longer possible for man to have a true and saving knowledge of God. World religion shows this. World religion is wholly given over to idols. every world religion is in error. Not one has it correct. They never have and never will. They are dead;
115 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
The apostles had the Holy Scriptures which as earlier posted were able to make one wise unto salvation
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
You would not know who Jesus was, or what he came to accomplish. The Apostles were taught from the Ot scripture what the anointed one would do when he came. They knew from all the prophecies as the Spirit quickened them .
No....even if someone hears of the gospel.....the only hear truth that was revealed in scripture already to the church.
The fact that several here think it is possible suggests a defective
understanding of how the word of God is used in both salvation and sanctification. That is why these clown churches offer entertainment instead of the word preached....those sitting there cannot abide the word....the same will judge them on the last day;
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
The only way to know the biblical Jesus is different from the other jesus is by the word.
.It isn't a matter of ignoring the bible, it is a matter of priority
but you are with your comments.
You said without scripture we don't have the biblical Jesus. How so?
Before the fall man communed with God and there was direct communication.
Because of the fall into sin and death man lost this ability to commune with God directly as sin separated man from God.
The effects of the fall left man with a distorted and perverted view of God and His creation.
Without scripture it was no longer possible for man to have a true and saving knowledge of God. World religion shows this. World religion is wholly given over to idols. every world religion is in error. Not one has it correct. They never have and never will. They are dead;
115 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
The apostles didn't have a bible like we have today, yet they somehow managed to share Jesus just fine.
The apostles had the Holy Scriptures which as earlier posted were able to make one wise unto salvation
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
.It is a blessing to have a record of the revelation, Jesus. I'm thankful for such a record, but Jesus would still be Jesus without it
You would not know who Jesus was, or what he came to accomplish. The Apostles were taught from the Ot scripture what the anointed one would do when he came. They knew from all the prophecies as the Spirit quickened them .
We can still be saved without it.
No....even if someone hears of the gospel.....the only hear truth that was revealed in scripture already to the church.
The fact that several here think it is possible suggests a defective
understanding of how the word of God is used in both salvation and sanctification. That is why these clown churches offer entertainment instead of the word preached....those sitting there cannot abide the word....the same will judge them on the last day;
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
.Sure others speak of Jesus, but is it the same Jesus the apostles spoke of? No
The only way to know the biblical Jesus is different from the other jesus is by the word.
I appreciate your and others high view of scripture, I really do. On this point we don't agree. It seems to you I want to ignore the bible, I don't. Tomorrow I will take my bible read it's inspired and trustworthy words and preach Jesus and him crucified, Jesus always first.
Of course I meant the New Testament.Zenas
They did not have a bible???
Are you kidding with this remark???
The Apostle Paul does not agree with you or this sadly mistaken post as he writes to Timothy;
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.9 And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day is holy unto the Lord your God; mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.
Of course I meant the New Testament.
Hello Zenas
I am sure you did.....but the nt is an expansion and modification of what was already revealed in the ot. The gospel was already contained in ot.
it is true that the nt is much clearer and full as Jesus himself comes as the full final revelation of God.
Paul is quite clear to Timothy.The scripture s of the ot were able to make im wise unto salvation.
Zenas......what can you tell us about Jesus that is not revealed in Holy scripture?
I appreciate your and others high view of scripture, I really do. On this point we don't agree. It seems to you I want to ignore the bible, I don't. Tomorrow I will take my bible read it's inspired and trustworthy words and preach Jesus and him crucified, Jesus always first.
Okay.....I will ask you the same question I asked Zenas. What can you tell us about Jesus and Him crucified that the bible does not tell us?
I can give testimony to what Jesus has done in my life. Other than that, nothing, but I don't need scripture to tell you a whole lot more about Jesus. And I expect you also could do a decent job of telling someone about Jesus without being anywhere near a Bible.Hello Zenas
I am sure you did.....but the nt is an expansion and modification of what was already revealed in the ot. The gospel was already contained in ot.
it is true that the nt is much clearer and full as Jesus himself comes as the full final revelation of God.
Paul is quite clear to Timothy.The scripture s of the ot were able to make im wise unto salvation.
Zenas......what can you tell us about Jesus that is not revealed in Holy scripture?
I can give testimony to what Jesus has done in my life. Other than that, nothing, but I don't need scripture to tell you a whole lot more about Jesus. And I expect you also could do a decent job of telling someone about Jesus without being anywhere near a Bible.
Why would anyone even try?
I appreciate your and others high view of scripture, I really do. On this point we don't agree. It seems to you I want to ignore the bible, I don't. Tomorrow I will take my bible read it's inspired and trustworthy words and preach Jesus and him crucified, Jesus always first.
I believe that.
I appreciate your and others high view of scripture, I really do. On this point we don't agree. It seems to you I want to ignore the bible, I don't. Tomorrow I will take my bible read it's inspired and trustworthy words and preach Jesus and him crucified, Jesus always first.
ALL the scriptures though have equally inspiration and revelation from God to us, and ALL of it is equally infallible, so what areas do you feel that is not true?
And the Bible and Jesus are in tandem, cannot seperate the two as you want to do here!
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Zenas
You can do that. What if the person does not know who Jesus is?
Why should anyone believe your testimony?
I do not think you can explain Jesus or the bible apart from what has been revealed by God throughout time.
Any testimony we give is only valid if it has been based on scripture;
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
This is not acceptable in any way. this despising of revealed truth cannot be defended.
No one is called upon to believe uncle Icon's stories.....My confession of Christ is as word centered as I can can make it, by God's grace.
I used to try and tell stories and offer examples, and be clever until in scripture I kept seeing it was the word...that is central at all times...
the apostles did miracles signs and wonders....result...many believed the WORD preached;
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
I can give testimony to what Jesus has done in my life.
You can do that. What if the person does not know who Jesus is?
Why should anyone believe your testimony?
I do not think you can explain Jesus or the bible apart from what has been revealed by God throughout time.
Any testimony we give is only valid if it has been based on scripture;
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Other than that, nothing, but I don't need scripture to tell you a whole lot more about Jesus.
This is not acceptable in any way. this despising of revealed truth cannot be defended.
.And I expect you also could do a decent job of telling someone about Jesus without being anywhere near a Bible
No one is called upon to believe uncle Icon's stories.....My confession of Christ is as word centered as I can can make it, by God's grace.
I used to try and tell stories and offer examples, and be clever until in scripture I kept seeing it was the word...that is central at all times...
the apostles did miracles signs and wonders....result...many believed the WORD preached;
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Zenas
You can do that. What if the person does not know who Jesus is?
Why should anyone believe your testimony?
I do not think you can explain Jesus or the bible apart from what has been revealed by God throughout time.
Any testimony we give is only valid if it has been based on scripture;
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
This is not acceptable in any way. this despising of revealed truth cannot be defended.
.
No one is called upon to believe uncle Icon's stories.....My confession of Christ is as word centered as I can can make it, by God's grace.
I used to try and tell stories and offer examples, and be clever until in scripture I kept seeing it was the word...that is central at all times...
the apostles did miracles signs and wonders....result...many believed the WORD preached;
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
Faith comes by h earing of the Word of God, not thru my own personal testimony to others!
Still will need to use the scriptures to speak to them with, as THOSE are the power of God unto salvation in the gospel records!
Okay.....I will ask you the same question I asked Zenas. What can you tell us about Jesus and Him crucified that the bible does not tell us?
Not much. Bible has been around for my entire life and I've had access to a copy. I'm not trying to separate Jesus and the bible, just believe that Jesus the revelation has priority over the written record of the revelation. It's not a matter of either or, but which is first.
ALL the scriptures though have equally inspiration and revelation from God to us, and ALL of it is equally infallible, so what areas do you feel that is not true?
And the Bible and Jesus are in tandem, cannot seperate the two as you want to do here!
My statement doesn't separate the two. Again it is a matter of priority, Jesus first.
My statement doesn't separate the two. Again it is a matter of priority, Jesus first.
Yes, as we worship the risen Lord, not the bible, but the Bible is just as much a revelation from God as jesus, in the sense that God authored it, and it speaks to us in same infallible fashion as jesus himself!
Yes, as we worship the risen Lord, not the bible, but the Bible is just as much a revelation from God as jesus, in the sense that God authored it, and it speaks to us in same infallible fashion as jesus himself!
If this is true, why don't you worship the bible?
Not much. Bible has been around for my entire life and I've had access to a copy. I'm not trying to separate Jesus and the bible, just believe that Jesus the revelation has priority over the written record of the revelation. It's not a matter of either or, but which is first.
Why I say you are wrong is...no one is going to see Jesus today. They are bound to the revelation of scripture, read, preached, or taught....scripture is what the Spirit quickens to believers....not stories, or events.
That is why we are given a new heart to welcome God's word.ezk36
Peter doesn't agree with you.Not much. Bible has been around for my entire life and I've had access to a copy. I'm not trying to separate Jesus and the bible, just believe that Jesus the revelation has priority over the written record of the revelation. It's not a matter of either or, but which is first.
2Pe 1:16-21
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Why I say you are wrong is...no one is going to see Jesus today. They are bound to the revelation of scripture, read, preached, or taught....scripture is what the Spirit quickens to believers....not stories, or events.
That is why we are given a new heart to welcome God's word.ezk36
I'm not placing such limits on how Jesus makes himself known. I can say there have been reports of the thing you say can't happen, happening. Jesus will reveal himself as he sees fit. Though it would be unusual, to say the least, from where I sit and I would have a mountain of questions, there are enough reports of this happening for me to leave open the possibility.
Peter doesn't agree with you.
2Pe 1:16-21
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
You're making my point, Jesus first.
2 Peter 1:16-21 NIV
[16] For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. [17] He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” [18] We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. [19] We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. [20] Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. [21] For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit …