The Free Offer Of The Gospel

[SovereignGrace]

I'll just wait to see how long it takes you to see your own contradiction.

***Mission Impossible theme music playing***

 

[CalTech]

Does Not God Have the Right to Do Whatever He Likes With His Own?


When you ask an Arminian friend if it would just if God left us all in our sin and saved no one, most answer yes, we are sinners and justly deserve God's wrath. But then turn around and ask, if God decided to pardon a number of these ill deserving sinners, but gave over the others to the justice they deserve, these same people suddenly cry out "that makes God unfair". Yet how can the former be okay in their eyes, but not the later? Does not God have the right to do what He wants with His grace? And are not those rebels getting their just deserts? If He were somehow obligated to give it to all, it would no longer be grace now would it?

Remember we indiscriminately cast the seed of the gospel to all people. God is holding no one back from believing. Their rejection of Christ and His gospel is completely willful and voluntary. They will not have Christ rule over them. Yet God still has mercy on many such rebels, giving them eyes to see, ears to hear and a new heart to believe.

(1 Cor 1:23-24, 29-31, 2:14, 12:3, 1 Thess 1:4-5, Rom 9:15-16, Eph 2:1, 5, 8-9, John 6:37, 63-65)
from Reformation Theology

Greetings,

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[CalTech]

I am in a public place right now. When God provides gospel opportunities The person I am speaking with does not know a Calvinist, from an RC. nothing is lacking from a solid gospel presentation being offered freely.
Total depravity is a fact, but the unsaved person is not resisting saying, well I am depraved so I have no opportunity to repent and believe...they are saying i reject you and your God and His word.

Greetings,

They reject, because they were not given the Grace to believe. Until the Lord grants them the Gift to receive the truth, they shall not believe. Grace does not come once they believe, Grace is given to cause them to believe.
If they reject, it is because they have not "heard", they have not "seen" to be able to believe. Because it is up to God to add unto the Church, those whom He has granted to believe the Truth. How does He grant them the Grace to believe the truth? Because the Holy Spirit gave them revelation to believe.

Here is one example:

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

If man is dead in total spiritual death, it takes the Lord's words to awaken them from the dead, which is sent by the Holy Spirit, which has come into the world to convict the world of sin.

Not everyone will believe, because God knows the hearts of men, as he did with Pharaoh, Esau, and Judas.

The Lord bless you....

 

[atpollard]

Herein is the problem with Reformed theology. If, as it is said, that saving faith is a gift from God, only to the elect, who then believe and are saved. How can God Justly condemn those who do not believe, as they clearly cannot, as they have not been gifted of this faith that saves them? This theology makes God insincere and unfair.

People are not condemned for unbelief.

John 3:18 [NASB20]
"The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."​

"Belief" removes judgement.
"Unbelief" leaves the judgement ALREADY THERE in place.

Men are not judged for their unbelief, men are judged for their sins. Men are PARDONED for their belief.

So your questions:

• How can God Justly condemn those who do not believe ... (God condemns all who sin for their sin.)
• as they clearly cannot ... (they 'cannot' receive the gift of unmerited favor - grace - that is not given to them. They chose to sin and earned the punishment for that sin - just as we did: Ephesians 2:3)
• as they have not been gifted of this faith that saves them? ... (Yes. Romans 9:14-18; Luke 8:10; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
• This theology makes God insincere and unfair. ... Why does God OWE mercy to any, let alone all? The offer is made to all (without exception). All (without exception) "hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God" [Genesis 3:8 & John 3:20]. God refused to take "no" for an answer and drew some anyway [John 6:44 & Romans 9:16] "according to the good pleasure of His will" [Ephesians 1:5]. Thus salvation is of GRACE (unmerited favor) from first to last, just like Ephesians 2:1-10 describes in detail.

My goal is not to convince you that it is true. My goal is far simpler. I wish to demonstrate that Reformed Theology is ...

1. Not man-made with no basis in scripture.
2. Not "unfair". God punishes the guilty for their sins and shows mercy on whom it pleases God to show mercy. Both are found in scripture and are His RIGHT as God.

 

[JesusFan]

People are not condemned for unbelief.

John 3:18 [NASB20]
"The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."​

"Belief" removes judgement.
"Unbelief" leaves the judgement ALREADY THERE in place.

Men are not judged for their unbelief, men are judged for their sins. Men are PARDONED for their belief.

So your questions:

• How can God Justly condemn those who do not believe ... (God condemns all who sin for their sin.)
• as they clearly cannot ... (they 'cannot' receive the gift of unmerited favor - grace - that is not given to them. They chose to sin and earned the punishment for that sin - just as we did: Ephesians 2:3)
• as they have not been gifted of this faith that saves them? ... (Yes. Romans 9:14-18; Luke 8:10; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
• This theology makes God insincere and unfair. ... Why does God OWE mercy to any, let alone all? The offer is made to all (without exception). All (without exception) "hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God" [Genesis 3:8 & John 3:20]. God refused to take "no" for an answer and drew some anyway [John 6:44 & Romans 9:16] "according to the good pleasure of His will" [Ephesians 1:5]. Thus salvation is of GRACE (unmerited favor) from first to last, just like Ephesians 2:1-10 describes in detail.

My goal is not to convince you that it is true. My goal is far simpler. I wish to demonstrate that Reformed Theology is ...

1. Not man-made with no basis in scripture.
2. Not "unfair". God punishes the guilty for their sins and shows mercy on whom it pleases God to show mercy. Both are found in scripture and are His RIGHT as God.

We were already judged and comdemned until saved by being found in Adam

 

[Silverhair]

[QUOTE="Silverhair, post: 2785779, member: Man is only saved by the will of God, we can not save our selves. God saves those that reach out to Him. Do you not agree with that?

You really can't see the contradiction in your statement, can you? It's like a big cataract is in front of your eyes so that you just cannot see it.

I'll just wait to see how long it takes you to see your own contradiction.[/QUOTE]

Are you so blind or stuck in your calvinism that you can not see the truth in that statement.

Man can not save himself only God can save.
God only saves those that trust in him
That is not man saving himself

Remember faith is required before you are saved and faith is not a work as the calvinists would have it.

 

[atpollard]

We were already judged and condemned until saved by being found in Adam

I agree.
I also know that truth bothers a lot of people, so I like to offer people a hypothetical "free pass on Original Sin".
So with a free pass on Adam's Sin, are you now guiltless in your own life from birth to present?

I am not. I have more than enough sins of my own to earn (wages) death and hell on my own merit without dragging Adam into this. So Jesus saved me from a lot more than Adam's curse.

 

[AustinC]

Are you so blind or stuck in your calvinism that you can not see the truth in that statement.

Man can not save himself only God can save.
God only saves those that trust in him
That is not man saving himself

Remember faith is required before you are saved and faith is not a work as the calvinists would have it.

You truly cannot see the contradiction in your statement. Without being able to see the contradiction you are blind to ever grasp your mistake. Moreso, you double down on your contradiction and then pull out your strawman. This is your M. O. when you are at a loss and cannot get out of your box.

 

[SavedByGrace]

People are not condemned for unbelief.

John 3:18 [NASB20]
"The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."​

"Belief" removes judgement.
"Unbelief" leaves the judgement ALREADY THERE in place.

Men are not judged for their unbelief, men are judged for their sins. Men are PARDONED for their belief.

So your questions:

• How can God Justly condemn those who do not believe ... (God condemns all who sin for their sin.)
• as they clearly cannot ... (they 'cannot' receive the gift of unmerited favor - grace - that is not given to them. They chose to sin and earned the punishment for that sin - just as we did: Ephesians 2:3)
• as they have not been gifted of this faith that saves them? ... (Yes. Romans 9:14-18; Luke 8:10; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
• This theology makes God insincere and unfair. ... Why does God OWE mercy to any, let alone all? The offer is made to all (without exception). All (without exception) "hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God" [Genesis 3:8 & John 3:20]. God refused to take "no" for an answer and drew some anyway [John 6:44 & Romans 9:16] "according to the good pleasure of His will" [Ephesians 1:5]. Thus salvation is of GRACE (unmerited favor) from first to last, just like Ephesians 2:1-10 describes in detail.

My goal is not to convince you that it is true. My goal is far simpler. I wish to demonstrate that Reformed Theology is ...

1. Not man-made with no basis in scripture.
2. Not "unfair". God punishes the guilty for their sins and shows mercy on whom it pleases God to show mercy. Both are found in scripture and are His RIGHT as God.

Clear MISQUOTING of what the Bible says!

Now read this again, ""The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

BECAUSE is the REASON they are already condemned. Before it says, "has been judged already"; it says, "THE ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE".

This is very clear from verse 36

"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him"

The person that REFUSES TO BELIEVE, is the one who WILL NOT SEE LIFE

Add to this Jesus' own words from John 16

"7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don’t go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you. 8 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment: 9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

You can see that it is UNBELIEF and REJECTION of Jesus Christ as their Saviour, that will damn them.

Your THEOLOGY is not what the Bible says

Again I will say this. IF, as reformed theology says, that faith that saves a person, is a GIFT only to the ELECT; then God will not punish those who do not have faith, as it is He Who has not given them this faith!

Reformed theology makes God UNJUST!

 

[atpollard]

Are you so blind or stuck in your Calvinism that you can not see the truth in that statement.

Man can not save himself only God can save.
God only saves those that trust in him
That is not man saving himself

Remember faith is required before you are saved and faith is not a work as the Calvinists would have it.

You dropped "Man is only saved by the will of God" from the equation.

Either

• "Man is only saved by the will of God"

or

• "God only saves those that trust in him"

The first makes "those that trust in him" the result of "the will of God". That is monergism ... the heart of Reformed Theology.
The second makes man saved "the will of God" AND "the will of those that trust" (man). That is synergysm... the heart of "free will" theology.

So the issue always comes back to the "will of fallen men" and how unsaved people of John 3:20 (does not come to the light) become people of John 3:21 (comes to the light) so they can Acts 2:38 (Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins). That is why centuries after the death of Calvin and Arminius, the debate continues.

 

[atpollard]

Clear MISQUOTING of what the Bible says!

Now read this again, ""The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

BECAUSE is the REASON they are already condemned. Before it says, "has been judged already"; it says, "THE ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE".

This is very clear from verse 36

"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him"

The person that REFUSES TO BELIEVE, is the one who WILL NOT SEE LIFE

Add to this Jesus' own words from John 16

"7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don’t go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you. 8 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment: 9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

You can see that it is UNBELIEF and REJECTION of Jesus Christ as their Saviour, that will damn them.

Your THEOLOGY is not what the Bible says

Again I will say this. IF, as reformed theology says, that faith that saves a person, is a GIFT only to the ELECT; then God will not punish those who do not have faith, as it is He Who has not given them this faith!

Reformed theology makes God UNJUST!

OK.
If you are convinced that God damns for unbelief and rewards for belief with SIN playing no part, then further conversation is pointless.

I respectfully disagree.
I believe that scripture teaches that men are condemned for sin.
I believe that scripture teaches that men are forgiven because of grace (unmerited favor of God).

You may believe whatever you wish.
Finis.

 

[Silverhair]

People are not condemned for unbelief.

John 3:18 [NASB20]
"The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."​

"Belief" removes judgement.
"Unbelief" leaves the judgement ALREADY THERE in place.

Men are not judged for their unbelief, men are judged for their sins. Men are PARDONED for their belief.

So your questions:

• How can God Justly condemn those who do not believe ... (God condemns all who sin for their sin.)
• as they clearly cannot ... (they 'cannot' receive the gift of unmerited favor - grace - that is not given to them. They chose to sin and earned the punishment for that sin - just as we did: Ephesians 2:3)
• as they have not been gifted of this faith that saves them? ... (Yes. Romans 9:14-18; Luke 8:10; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
• This theology makes God insincere and unfair. ... Why does God OWE mercy to any, let alone all? The offer is made to all (without exception). All (without exception) "hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God" [Genesis 3:8 & John 3:20]. God refused to take "no" for an answer and drew some anyway [John 6:44 & Romans 9:16] "according to the good pleasure of His will" [Ephesians 1:5]. Thus salvation is of GRACE (unmerited favor) from first to last, just like Ephesians 2:1-10 describes in detail.

My goal is not to convince you that it is true. My goal is far simpler. I wish to demonstrate that Reformed Theology is ...

1. Not man-made with no basis in scripture.
2. Not "unfair". God punishes the guilty for their sins and shows mercy on whom it pleases God to show mercy. Both are found in scripture and are His RIGHT as God.

What the calvinist fails to understand is that it is not the bible that we have a problem with it is the calvinist understanding of the bible.

"Reformed Theology is ...

1. Not man-made with no basis in scripture.
2. Not "unfair". God punishes the guilty for their sins and shows mercy on whom it pleases God to show mercy. Both are found in scripture and are His RIGHT as God."

Reformed Theology bases itself on a miss application of scripture
God is not "unfair", but under calvinism He is unjust.

 

[atpollard]

God is not "unfair",but under calvinism He is unjust.

What is "unjust" in condemning sinners for their sins.
Isn't punishing the guilty and freeing the innocent the definition of "Justice"?
Please explain the injustice.

 

[Silverhair]

You dropped "Man is only saved by the will of God" from the equation.

Either

• "Man is only saved by the will of God"

or

• "God only saves those that trust in him"

The first makes "those that trust in him" the result of "the will of God". That is monergism ... the heart of Reformed Theology.
The second makes man saved "the will of God" AND "the will of those that trust" (man). That is synergysm... the heart of "free will" theology.

So the issue always comes back to the "will of fallen men" and how unsaved people of John 3:20 (does not come to the light) become people of John 3:21 (comes to the light) so they can Acts 2:38 (Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins). That is why centuries after the death of Calvin and Arminius, the debate continues.

I have said many times, God has provided the way for man to know Him as we see in Rom 1:18-20 and in the various invitations found in the bible. This points toward a syergistic view of salvation. But as you said this debate will continue and will so long after we are gone.

 

[Silverhair]

What is "unjust" in condemning sinners for their sins.
Isn't punishing the guilty and freeing the innocent the definition of "Justice"?
Please explain the injustice.

God is not "unfair", but under calvinism He is unjust.

I did not say God was unjust, what I said is that calvinism makes God unjust.
Look at your theology.
Then look at the synonyms for JUST:
impartial, fair, equitable, upright, right, lawful, evenhanded, accurate

Now you tell me how you can square the ULI of your tulip with those words. That is why I said calvinism makes God unjust.

According to calvinism those that God chooses for Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but you just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

Calvinist theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. If, according to Calvinism, you are not part of this select group then you are doomed for the start. And on top of that God has even decreed just the way you will act out your sinful life and then condemns you for it.

That is not God being "unfair" that is God being "unjust". That is the hat calvinism has to wear.

 

[Silverhair]

You truly cannot see the contradiction in your statement. Without being able to see the contradiction you are blind to ever grasp your mistake. Moreso, you double down on your contradiction and then pull out your strawman. This is your M. O. when you are at a loss and cannot get out of your box.

I see your read comprehension skills have not improved.

No contradiction when you trust the bible but I can see why you would think there one as you trust your calvinism. That is the box you will have to work yourself out of.

 

[JesusFan]

Clear MISQUOTING of what the Bible says!

Now read this again, ""The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

BECAUSE is the REASON they are already condemned. Before it says, "has been judged already"; it says, "THE ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE".

This is very clear from verse 36

"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him"

The person that REFUSES TO BELIEVE, is the one who WILL NOT SEE LIFE

Add to this Jesus' own words from John 16

"7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don’t go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you. 8 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment: 9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

You can see that it is UNBELIEF and REJECTION of Jesus Christ as their Saviour, that will damn them.

Your THEOLOGY is not what the Bible says

Again I will say this. IF, as reformed theology says, that faith that saves a person, is a GIFT only to the ELECT; then God will not punish those who do not have faith, as it is He Who has not given them this faith!

Reformed theology makes God UNJUST!

All of us were born spiritual dead in Adam, correct?

 

[SavedByGrace]

All of us were born spiritual dead in Adam, correct?

what has that got to do with sinners not believing?

 

[JesusFan]

what has that got to do with sinners not believing?

None of us can apart from the grace of the Lord towards us!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I believe that scripture teaches that men are condemned for sin.

Have you even read what Jesus says in John 16:9?