savedbymercy
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John 3:16 is the elect world, the same as Jn 1:29
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The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel
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John 3:16 is the elect world, the same as Jn 1:29
That is only your opinion. You may be sincere, but you are sincerely wrong!
ironic that EVEN someone like me, a calvinist, and DHK, non Cal, can see in the scriptures that regardless just what election refers to...
BOTH of us agree that the Bible clearly teaches that we are saved by god once place faith in christ!
Why can't you?
savedbymercy
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savedbymercy
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Both of you believe in salvation by works !
when did you receive the Holy Spirit?
At birth, or when placing faith in Christ?
Were you born already regenerated by God, or done at time of conversion?
This question seems to illustrate your problem. I had no faith to place in Christ. Rather, God drew me to Christ, who took my old heart of stone and replaced it with a new heart of flesh, regenerated my spiritually dead soul, and gave me the faith to believe.
You can't put your faith in Christ if you have no faith to put. Remember, "Salvation is of the Lord."
I believe that regeneration and salvation take place at the same time, and faith is antecedent to them both. Otherwise you have regeneration as some mystical undefined act preceding faith, that the Calvinist cannot either define nor support by Scripture. It is a mystical experience possibly taking place days, even weeks or months before a person is saved. Who can say when a person is regenerated? Who can define when this mysterious action takes place. So you can have regenerated people in your church but they are not saved. It really is a ludicrous position to take, and it is not found in the Bible.This question seems to illustrate your problem. I had no faith to place in Christ. Rather, God drew me to Christ, who took my old heart of stone and replaced it with a new heart of flesh, regenerated my spiritually dead soul, and gave me the faith to believe.
You can't put your faith in Christ if you have no faith to put. Remember, "Salvation is of the Lord."
Nowhere in the Bible do you find God giving faith to an unsaved man. Faith, if given by God, is always given as a spiritual gift or as a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Those spiritual gifts are never given to unsaved people. Never does that happen. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people.
All unsaved individuals have faith. Jesus said: Unless you have faith as a small child you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is evident then that little children have faith. The object of their faith is their parents, whom they trust. If a person wants to be saved, the object of their faith must be Christ. Salvation must be by faith, as the Bible indicates over and over again.
Whatever happened to sola fide?
savedbymercy
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yesh
This is not about me ! Have I asked you that ? No, because I do not care about that. It is the fruit of a man's testimony that I judge, after all Jesus said By their fruit you shall know them !
This is not about me ! Have I asked you that ? No, because I do not care about that. It is the fruit of a man's testimony that I judge, after all Jesus said By their fruit you shall know them !
When Jesus said "fruit" in Mat.7 he was referring to doctrine. You shall know a false teacher by his fruit (doctrine). Thus Yeshua has a perfectly valid question, even according to your standards. We can know of your fruit by your testimony. Tell us your testimony that we many know of your fruit.
Fruit doesn't have to do with good works. I know of many Hindus and Muslims that have good works.
So, according to you a faithless person has faith?
This is why I stopped discussion with you in the other thread. Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? YES! We believe regeneration precedes faith! It is not "some mystical undefined act." It is the very basis of the Christian faith! "Ye must be born again." Without regeneration we would remain lost in our sin. And surely you know that the ordo salutus is logical and not temporal! Scriptural support, plenty! Romans 3:10-11. Ephesians 2:1-3. 1 Corinthians 2:14. Acts 16:14. John 1:12-13. Romans 9:16.
NONSENSE! It is instantaneous. Read the words to "Amazing Grace" - "The hour I first believed." We are born again, regenerated, saved, and justified in a twinkling of an eye.
The moment we believe in Christ as our Lord and Savior.
Any person who is saved can give testimony to this fact. If you can't maybe that is the problem!
What in the world would possess you to tell such an evil, egregious lie?
Yes, your position is ludicrous. It is bad enough that you can't intelligently articulate the basis of your salvation but that you also have to lie about mine!
Well, duh! The giving of faith is what saves! When I say that God gives us faith as a gift, I don't mean that he passes on a substance called faith to us, it means that he opens our blind eyes, unplugs our deaf ears and grants us a new heart and spirit so we will believe. (Ezek 36:27; Matt 16:15-17; John 5:21, 6:63-65) Both faith and obedience are equally impossible apart from renewal of heart.
So, you are saying that salvivic grace is not a gift from God? Or that the Holy Spirit is not active in regeneration? Where in the world did you learn that?
Again, the gift of faith (Eph 2:8-10) is the very definition of salvation.
If it does not happen there is no salvation.
God certainly gives his marvelous gift of redeeming grace to those lost souls. To think you have to reform your life prior to meriting His grace is the heart of the worst possible heresy.
Wow! You really are out in left field! The faithless have faith! I never thought I would hear such blasphemy on the Baptist Board!
Yes. Without faith you do not enter heaven. With faith you enter heaven. According to you, "All unsaved individuals have faith" therefore, according to you, all unsaved people are going to heaven.
Yes, the faith a child has in his parent is the kind of faith that a man must have in God. That faith is the gift of God according to Eph 2:8-10 and Romans 12, 1 Cor 12 & 13 is incontrovertible. And anyone who really understands what that faith is knows faith is not the product of an unregenerated human nature.
And what part did the child have in his conception and birth?
Yes, and that faith is NOT the product of the fallen nature. To think that it is is contrary to all the bible teaches.
What happened to it? You denied it! You think faith is the product of the unregenerate, fallen nature!
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No, I believe that faith is innate with man. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. When I got saved I was 20, but it was the first time I ever heard the gospel. I heard, understood, and then believed. It made sense to me. I then trusted Christ as my Savior. My faith came as a result of hearing the Word of God and having confidence in it that it was true. The object of my faith was Christ and what he did for me. My position is supported by John 3:5; 1Pet.1:23; Rom.1:17.
Thank you for responding though, you did clear some things up for me.
No, I don't make it up. Most of it is carefully thought through, especially as I have had to respond to various "types" of Calvinists on this board. Through my own study I believe that man puts his faith in Christ. The operation of the Holy Spirit is defined in John 16--to convict of sin, of judgment and of righteousness. The Lord primarily uses his Word and the Holy Spirit to bring a person to Christ.
I believe that the Calvinist often exaggerates the unsaved man's condition when he uses the word "dead." Dead means nothing more than "separation." It does not mean lifeless, or corpse.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
When physical death happens the spirit separates from the body.
When spiritual death happens the spirit is separated from God.
That doesn't mean it is a corpse. Man still has a spirit. It is separated from God by sin and needs to be reconciled to God by the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Word.
The concept that we have a dead, lifeless, corpse within us is absurd. But that is the picture most Calvinists put forth. Death means separation.
NONSENSE! It is instantaneous. Read the words to "Amazing Grace" - "The hour I first believed." We are born again, regenerated, saved, and justified in a twinkling of an eye.[/quote]
I am truly glad to hear you say that.
I have heard some pretty extreme views on this board. For example, Cornelius was regenerated before Peter ever got to his house. Or God may regenerate a man in Africa, having never heard the gospel, and then send a missionary to him so he can hear the gospel and have faith in order to be saved. This kind of nonsense comes from some (not all) of our Calvinistic brethren here.
I can, and I agree.
The "you" was generic, not personal. I am only repeating what I hear from some of the "Calvinists" that I hear on the theology forum. Not all believe that way, perhaps not even the majority. But that aspect of salvation is bantered around a lot: If regeneration is before salvation, and they do not take place simultaneously, then how long a space of time can possible exist between the two? And some believe that space of time can be quite a long time. Thus they would be regenerated but not saved.
Yes, your position is ludicrous. It is bad enough that you can't intelligently articulate the basis of your salvation but that you also have to lie about mine![/quote]
I can articulate my position very well.
It wasn't my position that was ludicrous. It was the position of others on this board. Thus I wasn't referring to you at all. The "you" was generic, not personal. To go back to John Newton: ...how sweet the sound, the hour "I first believed." Like Newton I remember the time I believed. And I don't believe that God had to give me faith in order to believe.
Yes, but not "God's Faith" that saves. I must believe God. God doesn't give me the faith to believe. That would simply make me his robot.
The Bible teaches that the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, righteousness and of judgment. We can see how He did that in Acts 2 in Peter's sermon, and in Acts 7 in Stephen's sermon. The Holy Spirit brought great conviction of sin. They had to make the decision to believe. On the day of Pentecost only 3,000 believed out of the many thousands that were present. They others continued to reject Christ though there was great conviction of sin.
You are misinterpreting this verse and taking "faith" out of context.
Parse the verse.
The subject is "you are saved." That is subject and verb, the essence of the entire verse.
For by grace are ye saved through faith.
You are saved by grace. By grace is a prepositional phrase defining the verb. How are we saved? By grace.
You are save through faith. Through faith is a prepositional phrase defining the verb. By what means is one saved--through faith.
(and that not of yourselves) Salvation is not of oneself.
It (salvation) is the gift of God.
Nowhere does it say that faith is the gift of God. You can't get that from that verse. The subject is salvation through and through. Faith is the object of a prepositional phrase that is defining a verb.
NO. He offers it. He offers his gift of salvation. That offer must be received by faith--their faith.
It is more of a heretical view to think that man is totally passive (like a rock) and think that God magically and for no reason is going to regenerate him. That is why I call it mysticism. There is no rhyme or reason given for regeneration.
But when dead is looked at as "separated" from God, then the spirit is not "lifeless" or a corpse.
For example with Adam. "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." Adam ate. Adam died. This dead Adam continued to talk and carry on a conversation to God. How can that be if Adam was dead? His physical death did not come til 930 years later, but right there and then he was spiritually dead and yet talking to God.
He was separated from God by sin. And not until God Himself offered a sacrifice was he restored to fellowship.
Everyone has faith. My children have faith in me, not as God but as their parent. We all have faith in something. The Muslim has faith in Allah. His faith is misplaced, but it is still faith. So what is so blasphemous about people having faith. They all do. The important thing is: Who is the object of YOUR faith? The object of my faith is Jesus Christ. He is the only one who can save.
Only those ones who have Jesus Christ and his atoning work as the object of their faith are going to heaven. If one has Allah as the object of their faith, they won't be going to heaven, will they?
If a child has the kind of faith that man needs to believe then mankind is born with it. It is part of his nature. His nature is fallen. He is not born with inherent goodness but inherent evil. Yet he in some ways still has the image of God stamped on him, which gives him the power to reason, to choose between good and evil, to think--those things which differentiate man from animals. Man possesses this faith from a child onward. It is not a special gift given at the time of regeneration.
The Scriptures you mention do not give any evidence that God gives faith to the unsaved. I don't see any evidence in Scripture of God doing that at all. What happens. He offers salvation to unsaved man. Man has the option of receiving it. If he does, he receives it by faith, even as a small child receives a gift from his or her parents by faith (by faith that his parents would not give them an evil gift). He trusts in them.
This is the problem with SBM, he cannot give us his testimony of how and when he came to Christ. Very odd for a Christian.
This question seems to illustrate your problem. I had no faith to place in Christ. Rather, God drew me to Christ, who took my old heart of stone and replaced it with a new heart of flesh, regenerated my spiritually dead soul, and gave me the faith to believe.
You can't put your faith in Christ if you have no faith to put. Remember, "Salvation is of the Lord."
I believe that faith itself is a gift from the Lord unto his elect!
Point making here was regardless IF one holds to faith as gift from god, or something that we produce, STILL have to place faith in jesus to get justified, unlike one who holds we are already reconciled to God!
Another example of why I stopped responding to you in the other thread.
1. You very conveniently cut out the sentence that completely demolishes your argument. "When I say that God gives us faith as a gift, I don't mean that he passes on a substance called faith to us, it means that he opens our blind eyes, unplugs our deaf ears and grants us a new heart and spirit so we will believe. (Ezek 36:27; Matt 16:15-17; John 5:21, 6:63-65) Both faith and obedience are equally impossible apart from renewal of heart."
2. And once again you change the subject and try to say "well, Calvinists believe such and such" and when called on it you deflect the issue again by claiming somebody else, not me, on another thread, but not this thread, said something sort of like that last year. <roll eyes>
3. And I can't help but note that you did not (and can not) answer my question. "What part did the child have in his own conception and birth?" Once you come to understand that Jesus used physical birth to illustrate the new birth you will come to understand that salvation if not of works, is not of man's will, but is of God.
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savedbymercy
New Member
yes
Thats false teaching. It teaches Justification before God by what man does "placing his faith in Christ" that is Justification by works.
It denies Justification by the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9, which the Resurrection of Christ gives evidence of Rom 4:25
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
That word Justification here means:
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
abjuring to be righteous, justification
Thats false teaching. It teaches Justification before God by what man does "placing his faith in Christ" that is Justification by works.
It denies Justification by the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9, which the Resurrection of Christ gives evidence of Rom 4:25
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
That word Justification here means:
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
abjuring to be righteous, justification
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I am truly glad to hear you say that.
I have heard some pretty extreme views on this board. For example, Cornelius was regenerated before Peter ever got to his house. Or God may regenerate a man in Africa, having never heard the gospel, and then send a missionary to him so he can hear the gospel and have faith in order to be saved. This kind of nonsense comes from some (not all) of our Calvinistic brethren here.
I can, and I agree.
The "you" was generic, not personal. I am only repeating what I hear from some of the "Calvinists" that I hear on the theology forum. Not all believe that way, perhaps not even the majority. But that aspect of salvation is bantered around a lot: If regeneration is before salvation, and they do not take place simultaneously, then how long a space of time can possible exist between the two? And some believe that space of time can be quite a long time. Thus they would be regenerated but not saved.
Yes, your position is ludicrous. It is bad enough that you can't intelligently articulate the basis of your salvation but that you also have to lie about mine![/quote]
I can articulate my position very well.
It wasn't my position that was ludicrous. It was the position of others on this board. Thus I wasn't referring to you at all. The "you" was generic, not personal. To go back to John Newton: ...how sweet the sound, the hour "I first believed." Like Newton I remember the time I believed. And I don't believe that God had to give me faith in order to believe.
Yes, but not "God's Faith" that saves. I must believe God. God doesn't give me the faith to believe. That would simply make me his robot.
The Bible teaches that the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, righteousness and of judgment. We can see how He did that in Acts 2 in Peter's sermon, and in Acts 7 in Stephen's sermon. The Holy Spirit brought great conviction of sin. They had to make the decision to believe. On the day of Pentecost only 3,000 believed out of the many thousands that were present. They others continued to reject Christ though there was great conviction of sin.
You are misinterpreting this verse and taking "faith" out of context.
Parse the verse.
The subject is "you are saved." That is subject and verb, the essence of the entire verse.
For by grace are ye saved through faith.
You are saved by grace. By grace is a prepositional phrase defining the verb. How are we saved? By grace.
You are save through faith. Through faith is a prepositional phrase defining the verb. By what means is one saved--through faith.
(and that not of yourselves) Salvation is not of oneself.
It (salvation) is the gift of God.
Nowhere does it say that faith is the gift of God. You can't get that from that verse. The subject is salvation through and through. Faith is the object of a prepositional phrase that is defining a verb.
NO. He offers it. He offers his gift of salvation. That offer must be received by faith--their faith.
It is more of a heretical view to think that man is totally passive (like a rock) and think that God magically and for no reason is going to regenerate him. That is why I call it mysticism. There is no rhyme or reason given for regeneration.
But when dead is looked at as "separated" from God, then the spirit is not "lifeless" or a corpse.
For example with Adam. "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." Adam ate. Adam died. This dead Adam continued to talk and carry on a conversation to God. How can that be if Adam was dead? His physical death did not come til 930 years later, but right there and then he was spiritually dead and yet talking to God.
He was separated from God by sin. And not until God Himself offered a sacrifice was he restored to fellowship.
Everyone has faith. My children have faith in me, not as God but as their parent. We all have faith in something. The Muslim has faith in Allah. His faith is misplaced, but it is still faith. So what is so blasphemous about people having faith. They all do. The important thing is: Who is the object of YOUR faith? The object of my faith is Jesus Christ. He is the only one who can save.
Only those ones who have Jesus Christ and his atoning work as the object of their faith are going to heaven. If one has Allah as the object of their faith, they won't be going to heaven, will they?
If a child has the kind of faith that man needs to believe then mankind is born with it. It is part of his nature. His nature is fallen. He is not born with inherent goodness but inherent evil. Yet he in some ways still has the image of God stamped on him, which gives him the power to reason, to choose between good and evil, to think--those things which differentiate man from animals. Man possesses this faith from a child onward. It is not a special gift given at the time of regeneration.
The Scriptures you mention do not give any evidence that God gives faith to the unsaved. I don't see any evidence in Scripture of God doing that at all. What happens. He offers salvation to unsaved man. Man has the option of receiving it. If he does, he receives it by faith, even as a small child receives a gift from his or her parents by faith (by faith that his parents would not give them an evil gift). He trusts in them.[/QUOTE]
Again, the main point being discussed here is NOT whether we have faith in ourselves, by thru a gift of God...
That is a good discussion to be had, but point here on OP is IF we are justified by God without faith required or not!
But, as I said in my earlier post, faith is not a commodity had by man or given by God. When I say that God gives us faith as a gift, I don't mean that he passes on a substance called faith to us, it means that he opens our blind eyes, unplugs our deaf ears and grants us a new heart and spirit so we will believe. (Ezek 36:27; Matt 16:15-17; John 5:21, 6:63-65) Both faith and obedience are equally impossible apart from renewal of heart.
If we see faith in that light (the correct light) we realize that no lost man can give sight to his own blind eyes, nor unplug his own deaf ears, nor give himself a new heart and spirit to believe. No man can do that, it is only accomplished by the regenerating work of God.
That is why DHK's position is so ludicrous. He believes the lost man can have faith. The logical conclusion of his faulty position is that he thinks a lost man can restore his own eyesight, and heal his own deaf ears, and give himself a new heart and spirit of belief. Utterly impossible. In Luke 12:25 Jesus says it is down right silly to think that a man can add a single hour to his life or a cubit to his height, yet DHK thinks he can unblind his own eyes, undeafen (is that a word?) his own ears, and revive his own heart and spirit and attain all the way to heaven! Impossible! Jesus mocks those who think that way! And rightly so. We can't add a single hour to our lives, a single inch to our height, or attain salvation and heaven on the basis of our own actions.
I am genuinely concerned that American Christendom has lost the true gospel of the grace of God and has deteriorated to preaching a gospel of self-worth, self-salvation, and self-satisfaction. How utterly sad for American Christendom.
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Perhaps we have different definitions of faith.
I define faith as: Confidence in the word of another.
I can take this definition from here:
Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised he will do.
It is confidence in the word of another. Biblical faith is confidence in the promises of God.
What do you do with the Muslim who has faith in Allah; the Hindu who has faith in his god, Ganesh, Vishnu, Ram, etc. or the Buddhist in Buddha? They all have faith--misdirected faith, but it is faith, nevertheless.
No, you made a personal attack and took things personally. So instead of using the word "you" I will start using the pronoun "one." And I did point out that there are Calvinists on this board who do have extreme views that not even you would agree with.
In his own conception at birth a child does not have understanding. He cannot have faith, that is the understanding to be saved. So your question is moot. IMO, it is a red herring. Faith comes with understanding. Rom.10:17--Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. This is not applicable to an infant.
Rom.5:1--Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Yes, salvation is all of God. However God allows man to accept the gift he offers by faith.
John 1:12, 13--
Verse 13 says being born...of God.
But verse 12 says:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--Even in the new birth there is an element of faith. We are given the authority to become the sons of God by believing or by faith.
So, you claim the lost man, who the bible says is the enemy of God, has confidence in His word?
Translation: Your question completely demolishes my position so I will claim it is moot.
Translation: As I can't answer you, I will claim it is a red herring.
Exactly. Faith is when a man's blind eyes are opened to the truth, when his deaf ears are opened to the word. And you claim that a blind man can give back his own sight and a deaf man can cause himself to hear even though the bible says differently.
Still dodging the question. Here, I will repost it: What part did a child have in his own conception and birth?
Please. Stop dodging, weaving, and avoiding the obvious. It just makes you look stupid.
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