The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel

[steaver]

First of all, and it may just be my advanced age, but I was taugh that calling someone by only his last name was rude. I am sure you didn't mean to be rude, but nevertheless that is the message I received.

Sorry T

How was I saved? Simple. As an adult of 27 years of age I was invited to a church service where an evangelist was preaching. During that preaching service I came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that I was a sinner, lost, and undone, and my sin had separated me from a loving God.

And you?

I was saved the same way, except the preacher was Billy Graham and I was 10. Interesting how we were saved the exact same way, simple, without having any knowledge of TULIP. You 27 and me 10, yet saved the same way, the Gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit convicts and we either say yea or nay. Praise God we said yes! Chosen through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the Son of God.

God bless you T.

 

[TCassidy]

Sorry T



I was saved the same way, except the preacher was Billy Graham and I was 10. Interesting how we were saved the exact same way, simple, without having any knowledge of TULIP. You 27 and me 10, yet saved the same way, the Gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit convicts and we either say yea or nay. Praise God we said yes! Chosen through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the Son of God.

God bless you T.

Everybody who is legitimately saved is saved the same way. The problem is that some, because of vile human pride, want to retain some of the recognition for themselves instead of giving God all the glory. They try to claim that it was in and of themselves that they came to Christ and want to take credit for "believing" or "praying a prayer" or "surrendering to Christ." When it was all of God and none of man.

 

[steaver]

Everybody who is legitimately saved is saved the same way. The problem is that some, because of vile human pride, want to retain some of the recognition for themselves instead of giving God all the glory. They try to claim that it was in and of themselves that they came to Christ and want to take credit for "believing" or "praying a prayer" or "surrendering to Christ." When it was all of God and none of man.

I haven't experienced any Christians like that personally. All the one's I know give God all the glory for their salvation. If not for God and the cross of Jesus we would have no hope. If not for God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit we would have no hope. If not for God and the drawing of the Father we would have no hope. Praise be to God and to God be ALL the glory!!!!!

 

[TCassidy]

I haven't experienced any Christians like that personally. All the one's I know give God all the glory for their salvation. If not for God and the cross of Jesus we would have no hope. If not for God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit we would have no hope. If not for God and the drawing of the Father we would have no hope. Praise be to God and to God be ALL the glory!!!!!

See every post by DHK in this thread. It was him, not God, who was responsible for his salvation.

 

[steaver]

See every post by DHK in this thread. It was him, not God, who was responsible for his salvation.

I have been here quite awhile and have read hundreds if not thousands of post from DHK. I have never concluded such thing from DHK. There are a few here that believe they are helping God save them in some way through their own obedience, but I know for sure that DHK is not one of them. When it comes to salvation and justification I am in full agreement with DHK and the scripture we always cite -

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8-9)

Some here erroniously teach that exercising faith in Christ is a work. This is plainly a false teaching and not found anywhere in the scripture.

 

[Alive in Christ]

TCassity...

You posted...

See every post by DHK in this thread. It was him, not God, who was responsible for his salvation.

That is pure rubbish. A complete lie. Total falsehood. Slanderous.

You owe DHK an apology

Your Calvinism has rendered you unable to discern truth from error. :tonofbricks:

 

[The Biblicist]

TCassity...

You posted...



That is pure rubbish. A complete lie. Total falsehood. Slanderous.

You owe DHK an apology

Your Calvinism has rendered you unable to discern truth from error. :tonofbricks:

The phrase "another gospel" is found in the book of Galatians does not deal directly with TULIP but with the doctrine of justification by grace through faith in contrast to works. One could rightly argue they are logically related to each other but that does not change the precise theological aspect of salvation that Paul is precisely dealing with - justification by faith without works.

My "free will" Baptist friends who embrace eternal security do not deny the doctrine of justification by grace through faith without works. Hence, it is unfair to attribute "another gospel" to them.

Their issue is over the cause behind the will moving it to believe the gospel. They do not deny the gospel of grace but rather deny a forced will. In reality the Bible also denies any EXTERNAL force applied on the will while clearly teaching the INTERNAL pressure applied on the will by one's own either depraved or regenerated heart (mind and emotions).

The issue is really not the will but what influences the will to make a certain choice. The issue is not about the freedom of the will but the limitations of the sphere in which that freedom operates. God has a free will but God cannot will to sin simply because His will exercises its freedom within the sphere of righteousness.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

The phrase "another gospel" is found in the book of Galatians does not deal directly with TULIP but with the doctrine of justification by grace through faith in contrast to works.

Thats false, since Tulip truthes are part of the Gospel ! Limited or Particular Atonement is quite clear 1 Cor 15:3, so to preach against it, is preaching another gospel.

Justification by Grace through Faith is denied if we do not Preach unconditional Election of Grace Rom 11:5-6

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace [electionof grace], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



Thats false, since Tulip truthes are part of the Gospel ! Limited or Particular Atonement is quite clear 1 Cor 15:3, so to preach against it, is preaching another gospel.

Justification by Grace through Faith is denied if we do not Preach unconditional Election of Grace Rom 11:5-6

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace [electionof grace], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Typical for someone who cannot distinguish between things that differ.

 

[DHK]

Yes. And WHO will believe? The one drawn to Christ by God. John 6:44, which you deny.

First, Christ said: "And I, if I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to myself. The meaning here is that his death, burial and resurrection was for all men, not just for a select group called the elect. It was efficacious only to them that believe. Like the Philippian jailer: I believed; I was saved. To God be the glory. No matter which way you look at it: Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I would not have believed, had I not heard and understood the gospel first. As for the Holy Spirit, there was conviction of the Holy Spirit as per John 16 where it clearly delineates the work of the Holy Spirit.

So, you deny that God opens the eyes of the blind and opens the ears of the deaf and opens the hearts of the lost. Fine. Do me a favor. Get a job driving a cab. If you preach that vile heresy you will hurt a lot of people.

I have heard the testimony of many that it is the Word that opens their eyes. That is also what is in harmony with Scripture.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Consider Paul's own testimony:
Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
--How were their eyes opened?
How were they turned from darkness to light?
How were the turned from the power of Satan unto God?
How did they receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance...?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
--It was through the preaching of of the cross. It is the Word of God that has the power to change the heart of the lost soul.
--When that gospel message is preached and understood, it must be accepted by faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

So, you also deny that God has the power to change our will? How sad.

Did I say that? Those are your words. You are trying to put them into my mouth. Not good.
--I just explained to you where the power of God comes from.

Once again you distort what I said so you won't have to admit your heresy. God opens the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf and the hearts of the lost. It is sad that you deny God the right to do so and demand you come to Him on the basis of your own goodness.

First, I don't preach heresy. I preach the Word.
Second, I don't have any of my own goodness, only the righteousness of Jesus Christ which he clothed me in, the day that I was saved.
Third, I obeyed his command to believe in him.
Fourth, I believed his promise that if I believed him he would give me eternal life.
Fifth, I find no such concept that I had to believe with God's faith in order to receive that eternal life. God didn't give me the faith to belief. Where do you get that from in Scripture?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--I heard; I believed; I was granted eternal life.

No, it is a gift from God. That is what I have been saying all along. It is you who keeps saying that everybody has it.

Every one has the ability to choose. You make choices every day. Those choices are based on faith. They always have been. It is the object of your faith that is important in salvation.

Wrong again. Regeneration is the first event in the ordo salutis as it pertains to man.

So you say. Even in the new birth, man cannot be born again without having heard the Word and believing it. Without faith in the Word; without faith preceding regeneration, you have nothing but a mystical esoterical existential undefinable experience that not even the Calvinist can explain.

So now you are saying that Ezek 36:27; Matt 16:15-17; John 5:21, 6:63-65 are not inspired scripture? They are wrong?

No, each verse has to be looked at in the context in which they are given.

No matter how many times you tell the lie it will never become truth. And, again, the ordu salutis is logical not temporal. But you keep ignoring that fact.

Does it come in handy for you to call my disagreement with you "a lie"?
The Bible repeatedly says that salvation is by faith. I believe that. That is no lie. Faith precedes salvation. That is a necessity.

If you think you, or your self manufactured "faith," is good enough to approach a Holy God on your/its own merit you are sadly mistaken. I pity you. Your pride is so strong you refuse to give God ALL the glory in salvation. You want to hang on to some of it for yourself.

Faith is not manufactured, it is God-given. Even a child has faith, as Jesus declared. Man has faith well before salvation. It is exercised in many different ways well before salvation. It has nothing to do with approaching God on one's own merit since faith is not a work. I do not approach God with any sense of pride, but humbly, and many times in tears. Your assessment is quite wrong. You know little of me, and your inferences are quite off.

 

[TCassidy]

I have been here quite awhile and have read hundreds if not thousands of post from DHK. I have never concluded such thing from DHK. There are a few here that believe they are helping God save them in some way through their own obedience, but I know for sure that DHK is not one of them. When it comes to salvation and justification I am in full agreement with DHK and the scripture we always cite -

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8-9)

Some here erroniously teach that exercising faith in Christ is a work. This is plainly a false teaching and not found anywhere in the scripture.

He has said over and over again that it was HIS faith, worked up in and by himself, and HIS submission to Christ that saved him. His salvation is all about him.

He denies that a person is dead in trespass and sin prior to his salvation. He denies that the lost person is the enemy of God.
He denies no lost person seeks after God.

The truth is, of course, exactly the opposite.
The bible teaches we are dead in trespass and sin prior to salvation.
The bible teaches that the lost person is the enemy of God.
The bible teaches that the lost do not seek after God.

The bible teaches that in order to come to Christ, God must first draw that person, open their blinded eyes, unstop their deaf ears, give them a new heart and spirit. I have posted the verses twice but he, and now you, apparently, don't accept those verses as scripture.

 

[TCassidy]

TCassity...

You posted...



That is pure rubbish. A complete lie. Total falsehood. Slanderous.

You owe DHK an apology

Your Calvinism has rendered you unable to discern truth from error. :tonofbricks:

Go back and read what he wrote in the above thread. He makes it pretty clear that he had faith long before he was saved, and that faith was in and of himself, and he, in and of himself, placed that faith in Christ.

He denies the nature of the lost person.

Now you can either be honest or continue in your diatribe.

 

[savedbymercy]

Typical for someone who cannot distinguish between things that differ.

lol, you just deny the Gospel is all. You can call it calvinism as a excuse, but it is Gospel Truth, Both being of the Election of Grace and Particular Atonement !

 

[The Biblicist]

First, Christ said: "And I, if I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to myself. The meaning here is that his death, burial and resurrection was for all men, not just for a select group called the elect. It was efficacious only to them that believe.

I hold a position in between you and TCassidy and so I don't agree with either of you completely.

John 12:32 comes after the fuller explanation of John 6 and so it cannot be isolated from John 6 and made to stand alone.

John 12:32 cannot be isolated from its immediate preceding context where it is gentiles that specifically ask to see Christ and it is this very request that leads Chrsit into this very discussion.

In John 6:44-45 every single person drawn by the father comes to the son in faith and is eternally saved. This is proven by the last phrase in verse 44 which has been already defined and applied to every single one given by the Father to the Son in verses 39-40 and later in verse 54.

In John 6:64-65 Jesus substitutes the term "draw" for the term "given" and places it in a context that defines it as explanatory for why those in verse 64 did not truly believing in him although they professed to be his disciples.

Hence, the proper interpretation of "all men" in John 12:32 must be fitting with all the criteria minutely set down in John 6 concerning this topic and the immediate context of John 12:20-32 where the subject is NON-JEWS who want to come to Jesus. Thus "all men" does not mean all men without exception but all men without distinction because he that has been drawn by the Father is the same "him" who is raised up to the resurrection of eternal life (Jn. 6:44b) and he is "all" that is taught of the Father (Jn. 6:45a) and "everyone" that has learned and heard of the Father (Jn. 6:45b) because "everyone" that hath learned and heard of the Father "cometh" to Jesus (Jn. 6:45c) and not one single person that comes to Son shall be lost (Jn. 6:39) but raised to the resurrection of eternal life (Jn. 6:39b).

However, in regard to the freedom of the will, I do not deny it. I believe all men can freely chose. However, that freedom is within the sphere of their own nature and not outside of it just as God's freedom of choice is restricted within the sphere of righteousness and not outside of it as he cannot choose to sin or lie.

 

[DHK]

He has said over and over again that it was HIS faith, worked up in and by himself, and HIS submission to Christ that saved him. His salvation is all about him.

That is what Charismatics do. "work up their faith." I never said any such thing. I simply believe, as the Bible commands. Salvation is by grace through faith. I do not forget about grace. The riches of the grace of God are far beyond my comprehension--how an infinite God could leave the glories of heaven, so humble himself to be born of a virgin in a lowly stable, walk among men who reviled him, and then finally crucified him out of their own jealousy. No, I don't understand all of that. But I am awed at it. His death, burial and resurrection is central to my faith. But I must accept it by faith as Eph.2:8,9 declares.

He denies that a person is dead in trespass and sin prior to his salvation. He denies that the lost person is the enemy of God.
He denies no lost person seeks after God.

Please define how a person is "dead".

The truth is, of course, exactly the opposite.
The bible teaches we are dead in trespass and sin prior to salvation.

I don't deny it; I may question your definition of "dead."

The bible teaches that the lost person is the enemy of God.

No doubt it does. It also teaches that a Christian is the enemy of God if he is a friend of the world. See James 4:4. Are you the enemy of God? I don't know. It is possible.

The bible teaches that the lost do not seek after God.

The Bible teaches many things, not just one thing.

The bible teaches that in order to come to Christ, God must first draw that person, open their blinded eyes, unstop their deaf ears, give them a new heart and spirit. I have posted the verses twice but he, and now you, apparently, don't accept those verses as scripture.

That is not the only thing the Bible teaches. That is also your interpretation of what the Bible is teaching according to specific verses, and you are limiting yourself to those verses, and excluding the vast majority of Scripture that would put that Scripture in a totally different light.

 

[TCassidy]

First, Christ said: "And I, if I be lifted up, I will draw ALL men to myself. The meaning here is that his death, burial and resurrection was for all men, not just for a select group called the elect.

Once again you seem to have failed to understand the scriptures. Jesus was talking to Jews. He was reminding them that "Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness." Any who turned and looked would live. Here He is drawing a parallel with His crucifixion. All who look to His crucifixion will live. Who will look? Those whom God has drawn (John 6:44). John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

I have heard the testimony of many that it is the Word that opens their eyes. That is also what is in harmony with Scripture.

So now you are admitting that before you could believe God had to open your eyes? Good! Now you are starting to understand.

Fifth, I find no such concept that I had to believe with God's faith in order to receive that eternal life. God didn't give me the faith to belief. Where do you get that from in Scripture?

So, you say that God did not give you any reason to have confidence in Him? I already posted this once but you seem to have ignored it so I will post it again: "In the conversion of the sinner God enlightens the mind John 6:45, he inclines the will Psalm 110:3, and he influences the soul by motives, by just views of his law, by his love, his commands, and his threatenings; by a desire of happiness, and a consciousness of danger; by the Holy Spirit applying truth to the mind, and urging him to yield himself to the Saviour. So that, while God inclines him, and will have all the glory, man yields without compulsion; the obstacles are removed, and he becomes a willing servant of God."

Every one has the ability to choose. You make choices every day. Those choices are based on faith. They always have been. It is the object of your faith that is important in salvation.

One can only choose that which is within the parameters of his moral condition. That is called "free moral agency." According to the bible the lost man cannot choose salvation. The evil man cannot choose good. Just look at Proverbs 21:4, "An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin."

Now why would the bible say the plowing of the wicked man is sin? Farming is hard work! Hard work is an example of good ethics. You work for what you have. But God says that good hard work is sin! Why? Well, why does the man plow? So he can plant his crops. Why does he plant his crops? So he will have food to eat. Why does he want food to eat? So he can keep up his strength. Why does he want to keep up his strength? So he can continue his rebellion against God!

You are under the false impression that the lost man can make choices contrary to his moral nature. The bible proves that to be wrong. A lost man can only continue to be lost. He can only continue to be the enemy of God.

So you say. Even in the new birth, man cannot be born again without having heard the Word and believing it. Without faith in the Word; without faith preceding regeneration, you have nothing but a mystical esoterical existential undefinable experience that not even the Calvinist can explain.

And once again tell the same wicked lie, and after I already called you on it in an earlier post and showed you where you were wrong. This tells me quite a bit about you. If you cannot defend your position using the truth you resort, quite easily, it seems, to a lie. Shame on you! The Lord rebuke you!

No, each verse has to be looked at in the context in which they are given.

All the verses I posed were in the exact context we are discussing. "Out of context" is the last resort of the bible denier.

Does it come in handy for you to call my disagreement with you "a lie"?

When you lie, yes! If you don't want your lies pointed out stop posting them!

The Bible repeatedly says that salvation is by faith. I believe that. That is no lie. Faith precedes salvation. That is a necessity.

Actually the bible says salvation is by Grace THROUGH faith. But you say it is YOUR faith! Your faith does not provide God's salvation! Where did YOUR faith come from?

Faith is not manufactured, it is God-given.

That is what I have been saying all along!

Even a child has faith, as Jesus declared. Man has faith well before salvation. It is exercised in many different ways well before salvation. It has nothing to do with approaching God on one's own merit since faith is not a work. I do not approach God with any sense of pride, but humbly, and many times in tears. Your assessment is quite wrong. You know little of me, and your inferences are quite off.

Why do you keep changing the subject? You know very well that the "faith" we are talking about is "reliance on God" or "confidence in God." But you keep throwing up this smoke screen about children having "faith" in their parents, yada yada yada. Stick to the subject.

As for my assessment, it is you who keeps saying God did not open your eyes or unstop your ears and gave you reason to have confidence in Him. I can only assess you by what you say and you have said it was YOU and not God who gave you that confidence.

 

[TCassidy]

Are we spiritually dead prior to salvation, or just a bit crippled but still able to seek God?

Well, what sayeth the scriptures:

Romans 8:10, And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:1, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Colossians 2:13, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

That pretty much ends that argument.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Are we spiritually dead prior to salvation, or just a bit crippled but still able to seek God?

Well, what sayeth the scriptures:

Romans 8:10, And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:1, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Colossians 2:13, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

That pretty much ends that argument.

I notice you are fond of prooftexting. Problem is, others can prooftext to counter your prooftext, should they wish to do so.

Prooftexters fall prey to being stucketh by their on sword -- to be consistent with your King James English.

 

[The Biblicist]

I notice you are fond of prooftexting. Problem is, others can prooftext to counter your prooftext, should they wish to do so.

Prooftexters fall prey to being stucketh by their on sword -- to be consistent with your King James English.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in proof texting unless it is a proof text used contrary to its immediate context.

 

[TCassidy]

It never ceases to amaze me how little understanding some Christians have of the bible and spiritual things.

Everyone in this thread accepts the fact that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." That is a given.

However, many posting here don't seem to realize who it is that will hear!

Again, let's see what the scriptures have to say on the subject.

Romans 10:17 makes it clear that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Who will hear? Jesus makes that very clear in John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

So, Christ makes it very clear that it is His sheep who will hear and follow.

Now comes the good part. If they are his sheep they are already born of the Spirit! Why? Because the bible says so! Romans 8:9b "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

God's word makes it very clear. Faith comes by hearing. Only His sheep hear. His sheep have the Spirit. If they don't have the Spirit they are not His sheep and they do not hear.

It couldn't be more clear. Regeneration, then faith, then justification, then following Christ.

When we just allow the word of God to speak for itself all arguments are over.