The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel

[The Biblicist]

HP: Fatalism is nothing more or less than ends chosen by one that cannot be possibly avoided. One could call it Sovereign fatalism if one so chooses to, as fatalism is fatalism.

One has to build in a true disconnect between God's choice and salvation if fatalism is to be avoided. When one denies the will of man as being that disconnect, fatalism of necessity rules. It is an unavoidable logical consequence of such a system of thought.

So, if I understand your terms as you present them, I would say they are one in the same.

So any type of God who is capable of working all things together to accomplish his purpose is fatalism in your book? - Rom. 8:28

Hence, your type of God is unable to have a divine purpose that is inclusive of other creatures because free will loses all freedom if it can be directed or determined by any design or purpose of another even it that "another" is God?

 

[Iconoclast]

How False preachers pervert the scriptures is done most frequently in what is called the invitations to Salvation to all without exception. Some of the most common, we will show that these invites are actually efficacious calls of Grace, to most unworthy Elect sinners, and not to the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins !

I have many times been supportive of your posts. i cannot support this thread however. You have gone off...

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33So Paul departed from among them.

The command to believe goes to all men everywhere.....jn3:16...all men, all kinds of men. We preach and teach to all men.

The list of qualifiers, while true...does NOT stop us from preaching to ALL men.

all who labor, all who thirst,etc The results belong to God.We preach to all.

9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

Paul was told to preach....to all....God had much people, not all people, but the gospel is freely offered to all.

Those who have the opportunity to hear of the cross,and reject have greater condemnation that those who just die in their sins ,never having heard.

You are combining and confusing issues that need to be studied seperately. This sends the wrong message,and does not reflect the biblical teaching accurately. The abuse of what is known as the invitation system notwithstanding...this error ,while mixed with some fragments of truth is still error...a good gallon of milk.with a little stricnine, turns into a gallon of poison.

 

[DHK]

How False preachers pervert the scriptures is done most frequently in what is called the invitations to Salvation to all without exception. Some of the most common, we will show that these invites are actually efficacious calls of Grace, to most unworthy Elect sinners, and not to the spiritually dead in trespasses and sins !

You are off here Icono.
There is nothing wrong with an invitation. Peter gave one in Acts 2. I have been in many Calvinistic churches during my travels and many of them have given invitations. There is an invitation given by God himself in Revelation 22.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Moriah]

So any type of God who is capable of working all things together to accomplish his purpose is fatalism in your book? - Rom. 8:28

Hence, your type of God is unable to have a divine purpose that is inclusive of other creatures because free will loses all freedom if it can be directed or determined by any design or purpose of another even it that "another" is God?

God draws us with lovingkindness (Jeremiah 31:3). God is kind to all, even the wicked and ungrateful, see Luke 6:35. The following are scriptures that show a loving God, and that God calls and some do not answer. They resist God.

But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." Romans 10:21. God held his hands out. The people were obstinate to God holding his hands out. Isaiah 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

Does it make sense that God would hold out His hands to people if He made it impossible for them to come to Him? Pagans CHOOSE to do that in which they do. 1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

God held out His hands to disobedient and obstinate people. They rejected God. It is their sin, their sin of rejecting God. They rejected God on their own and will be judged and punished for that. When God judges them and punishes them, it will be the sin of rejecting God. If God made them without the capability to believe, then they would be innocent.

Many people say God created all people with the inability to choose Him, yet in these next scriptures, it shows that God wants the wicked to turn from their ways. Why would God plead with them to turn from their ways if they cannot choose to?

"But as for you who forsake the LORD and forget my holy mountain, who spread a table for Fortune and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny, I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me." Isaiah 65:11-12.
Here God says about being forsaken and His holy mountain being forgot. Also, this passage tells us that God called the people, and the people did not answer; He spoke but the people did not listen. We also see that they CHOSE what displeases God. God’s Word is what God says. God says they "chose" what displeases Him. Who is anyone to say now that they have no choice?

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Romans 11:14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
How could Paul ever think that he could save some by arousing them to envy if God saves us by the Holy Spirit enabling us to believe?

God wants all to come to Him, but many love darkness instead of the light, see John 3:19.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amen Moriah. An excellent response to Biblicist's remarks and a sound presentation of truth. :thumbs:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are off here Icono.
There is nothing wrong with an invitation. Peter gave one in Acts 2. I have been in many Calvinistic churches during my travels and many of them have given invitations. There is an invitation given by God himself in Revelation 22.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Peter gave a command.....Repent and believe is not an option but a command. the preaching of the cross should be "the invitation"...there is nothing wrong with urging sinners to the cross....that being said ,the invitation system is a falsehood....

because SBM...has gone a few steps over the line does not open the floodgates to all manner of man centered error.

I am thankful that God is sovereign and he saves despite our errors anyhow.

 

[seekingthetruth]

You are off here Icono.
There is nothing wrong with an invitation. Peter gave one in Acts 2. I have been in many Calvinistic churches during my travels and many of them have given invitations. There is an invitation given by God himself in Revelation 22.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I think what Icon means is that he objects to invitations because they imply that Grace is offered to all, not just the elect. In other words it's wrong to invite the non-elect to recieve salvation because God will not grant it to them.

And yes DHK, Icon is totally wrong, because Grace is indeed given to all that will recieve it.

John

 

[Iconoclast]

I think what Icon means is that he objects to invitations because they imply that Grace is offered to all, not just the elect. In other words it's wrong to invite the non-elect to recieve salvation because God will not grant it to them.

And yes DHK, Icon is totally wrong, because Grace is indeed given to all that will recieve it.

John

I think you did not read post #222:wavey: i will accept your apology after you read it...then you may retract your false statement.
If you want to know what Icon means....ask Icon:thumbsup:

read post 222...tell me what you see as wrong...then we can talk.:wavey:

I think what Icon means is that he objects to invitations because they imply that Grace is offered to all, not just the elect. In other words it's wrong to invite the non-elect to recieve salvation because God will not grant it to them.

No one knows who are elect...so we preach to all men.....I know you desire to oppose the truth of calvinism....but this is just suggesting random thoughts ...that i never posted.....again see post 222

 

[savedbymercy]

icon

The command to believe goes to all men everywhere

Sure it does, to all the born again elect everywhere, both jew and gentile !

.....jn3:16...all men, all kinds of men. We preach and teach to all men.

Maybe you do, but the Apostles did not, teaching is for those born again ones !

Peter gave a command.....Repent and believe is not an option but a command.

Yes, to those He perceived that had been newly born of the Spirit, and it was limited to the House of Israel, the Elect of God !

Besides, if you believe that a person gets saved by obeying a command, you are perverting the Gospel of Grace and promote salvation by works !

 

[seekingthetruth]

I think you did not read post #222:wavey: i will accept your apology after you read it...then you may retract your false statement.
If you want to know what Icon means....ask Icon:thumbsup:

read post 222...tell me what you see as wrong...then we can talk.:wavey:



No one knows who are elect...so we preach to all men.....I know you desire to oppose the truth of calvinism....but this is just suggesting random thoughts ...that i never posted.....again see post 222

I didnt say anything about preaching to everyone. I said you object to inviting everyone through an invitation to be saved because you believe that salvation is not meant for everyone.

let's get past the preaching part, and concentrate on the OP, which is the invitation. And if you will read what you wrote in post 222 you will see that you have more or less stated that a call to ALL to repent is wrong because ALL cannot repent.

And I dont believe that. It is not what the Bible teaches.

Now, are invitations misused? Yes. Is the "sinner's paryer" as a magical spell wrong? Yes. But a sincere invitation for "whosoever will" to repent and be saved is Biblical.

John

 

[Fred's Wife]

God draws us with lovingkindness (Jeremiah 31:3). God is kind to all, even the wicked and ungrateful, see Luke 6:35. The following are scriptures that show a loving God, and that God calls and some do not answer. They resist God.

But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people." Romans 10:21. God held his hands out. The people were obstinate to God holding his hands out. Isaiah 65:2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

Does it make sense that God would hold out His hands to people if He made it impossible for them to come to Him? Pagans CHOOSE to do that in which they do. 1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

God held out His hands to disobedient and obstinate people. They rejected God. It is their sin, their sin of rejecting God. They rejected God on their own and will be judged and punished for that. When God judges them and punishes them, it will be the sin of rejecting God. If God made them without the capability to believe, then they would be innocent.

Many people say God created all people with the inability to choose Him, yet in these next scriptures, it shows that God wants the wicked to turn from their ways. Why would God plead with them to turn from their ways if they cannot choose to?

"But as for you who forsake the LORD and forget my holy mountain, who spread a table for Fortune and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny, I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me." Isaiah 65:11-12.
Here God says about being forsaken and His holy mountain being forgot. Also, this passage tells us that God called the people, and the people did not answer; He spoke but the people did not listen. We also see that they CHOSE what displeases God. God’s Word is what God says. God says they "chose" what displeases Him. Who is anyone to say now that they have no choice?

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Romans 11:14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
How could Paul ever think that he could save some by arousing them to envy if God saves us by the Holy Spirit enabling us to believe?

God wants all to come to Him, but many love darkness instead of the light, see John 3:19.

Amen! Excellent response! :thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Peter gave a command.....Repent and believe is not an option but a command. the preaching of the cross should be "the invitation"...there is nothing wrong with urging sinners to the cross....that being said ,the invitation system is a falsehood....

because SBM...has gone a few steps over the line does not open the floodgates to all manner of man centered error.

I am thankful that God is sovereign and he saves despite our errors anyhow.

"Despite our efforts"
That is the problem with Calvinism. They are so afraid they might do something they might get in the way of God. That is why Calvinistic churches, a good many of them at least, are shallow on the Great Commission. In spite of that fact, William Carey went to India anyway. There he invited sinners to come to Christ. He didn't wait around for God to do the saving. He actively sought them out.

You can sit on your rump all day long, but unless you are actively engage in carrying out the Great Commission when it comes Judgment Day, I believe many of those that are there--their blood will be on your hands. They won't be saved because the Calvinists didn't think it was their obligation to give the good news of salvation to them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: You can sit on your rump all day long, but unless you are actively engage in carrying out the Great Commission when it comes Judgment Day, I believe many of those that are there--their blood will be on your hands. They won't be saved because the Calvinists didn't think it was their obligation to give the good news of salvation to them.

HP: This sounds real good on the surface, but if faith is as you present it, and has nothing to do with an act of the will, man is not involved in faith. If man is not involved in faith, then all is predetermined by God, and those He grants faith to, i.e., the elect, will be saved regardless of any and all efforts by man. Again, if you despise necessitated fatalism, you are going to have to align your ideas of faith up in such a way as not to necessitate fatalism by your notions on faith.

 

[DHK]

HP: This sounds real good on the surface, but if faith is as you present it, and has nothing to do with an act of the will, man is not involved in faith. If man is not involved in faith, then all is predetermined by God, and those He grants faith to, i.e., the elect, will be saved regardless of any and all efforts by man. Again, if you despise necessitated fatalism, you are going to have to align your ideas of faith up in such a way as not to necessitate fatalism by your notions on faith.

I am not your resident Calvinist. I keep telling you that. The Calvinist believes that faith is a gift given after regeneration. I certainly don't believe that. I believe man has faith inherent in him from his youth up. It is the ability to choose from right and wrong. The choice to receive or reject Christ. If one receives Christ he receives a gift. But he has had that ability for a long time. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. The Calvinist may believe that, but I don't.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I am not your resident Calvinist.

HP: Never said you were. I simply show forth when the ends of your arguments are in lock step with the necessitated fatalistic ends of Calvinism.

DHK: The Calvinist believes that faith is a gift given after regeneration. I certainly don't believe that. I believe man has faith inherent in him from his youth up. It is the ability to choose from right and wrong. The choice to receive or reject Christ.

HP: Notice carefully how the only choice of right or wrong according to you, involves only ONE CHOICE of either accepting or rejecting Christ which does not come to all, neither does it come to all from their youth up. If it does, you can stop your evangelism without any appreciable effect upon the outcome of one solitary soul.

DHK: If one receives Christ he receives a gift. But he has had that ability for a long time. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. The Calvinist may believe that, but I don't.

HP: You just said you do believe that, but you don't believe that as I read you. You say that one has a gift of the ability of faith from their youth to accept Christ, but then you say God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved persons.

Who grants to man, apart from any action of their own whatsoever, the ability to exercise faith in Him? Why is that ability not precisely a gift, in the strictest terms you place upon what is and what is not a gift?

Is the gift of faith a spiritual gift from God or is it not, and in what sense is faith a spiritual gift and in what sense is it NOT a spiritual gift?

 

[Moriah]

I am not your resident Calvinist. I keep telling you that. The Calvinist believes that faith is a gift given after regeneration. I certainly don't believe that. I believe man has faith inherent in him from his youth up. It is the ability to choose from right and wrong. The choice to receive or reject Christ. If one receives Christ he receives a gift. But he has had that ability for a long time. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. The Calvinist may believe that, but I don't.

I have made bold letters to what you say that makes you as the Calvinists. You sound like a very confused person when you say anyone can be saved if they believe, but then you say only the saved can believe. Is that not what you teach? Please explain to me better if that is not what you say.

Furthermore, what do you mean the Calvinists may believe that, but you do not? Calvinists believe that they are saved before the creation of the world.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Maybe DHK believes abilities to have faith is NOT a gift from God, and rather comes by works? Who knows?

 

[DHK]

HP: Never said you were. I simply show forth when the ends of your arguments are in lock step with the necessitated fatalistic ends of Calvinism.

Then go back to school and learn how to read. Barring that, at least learn how to read my posts. It is evident that either you are not reading them or not understanding them. Which?

HP: Notice carefully how the only choice of right or wrong according to you, involves only ONE CHOICE of either accepting or rejecting Christ which does not come to all, neither does it come to all from their youth up. If it does, you can stop your evangelism without any appreciable effect upon the outcome of one solitary soul.

More evidence that you either don't read or don't comprehend. Which?
Every person comes to a crossroads in their life in which they must make a choice--a choice to believe or not to believe; to reject or to receive; that is their choice. They make it. The Calvinist says they are elect and the choice is not theirs to make. I don't agree with that. The gospel, of a necessity must be preached that all might hear and given that choice to believe or not to believe.

HP: You just said you do believe that, but you don't believe that as I read you. You say that one has a gift of the ability of faith from their youth to accept Christ, but then you say God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved persons.

Reading comprehension again?? I never said faith was a gift. I said that faith was inherent in every man. We were born with the ability to make choices. To put it into the secular realm: before I go to church this evening I will put my key into the ignition of my car, and I have faith that when I turn the key that it will start. Why?
The definition of faith: It is the confidence in the word of another.
In this case it is the confidence in the promise of the manual of the Ford Motor Company that those instructions will work.
Second, by both experience and relationship. I know that because I have done it many times before. Experience.
--Someday it may fail. My faith won't fail, but the car may fail. That is because it is made by man, and men are fallible.
But I can put my faith in a perfect infallible God, and in his perfect Word. Both He and His Word will never fail. I can trust him implicitly and always.
--That is an illustration of faith.

Who grants to man, apart from any action of their own whatsoever, the ability to exercise faith in Him? Why is that ability not precisely a gift, in the strictest terms you place upon what is and what is not a gift?

Everything we have comes from God. But faith as a spiritual gift is not given to an unsaved individual. God does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved.

Is the gift of faith a spiritual gift from God or is it not, and in what sense is faith a spiritual gift and in what sense is it NOT a spiritual gift?

It is natural. Children have faith in their parents, a natural thing to do.
It is the object of the faith that is important: parents, cars, or Christ for salvation.
Faith as a spiritual gift can only be given to believers.
It was the disciples (saved individuals), that prayed "Lord increase our faith."

 

[DHK]

I have made bold letters to what you say that makes you as the Calvinists. You sound like a very confused person when you say anyone can be saved if they believe, but then you say only the saved can believe. Is that not what you teach? Please explain to me better if that is not what you say.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
How complicated is that statement? Anyone can be saved. Believe and be saved. It is that simple. If you believe you can be saved. Simple enough?

Furthermore, what do you mean the Calvinists may believe that, but you do not? Calvinists believe that they are saved before the creation of the world.

NO, they don't. They believe they are elect before the foundation of the earth. That is not the same as saved. The elect still must be regenerated so that they may receive the gift of faith, and then they will have the ability to be saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, before I answer, give us once again your definition of what constitutes a gift, and define what it means for something to be 'spiritual'. Thank you.