The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel

[TCassidy]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in proof texting unless it is a proof text used contrary to its immediate context.

No, no! You are not allowed to use the bible to prove your point. You have to ask Michael who will speak "ex cathedra" then you will know for sure.

 

[mandym]

I notice you are fond of prooftexting. Problem is, others can prooftext to counter your prooftext, should they wish to do so.

Prooftexters fall prey to being stucketh by their on sword -- to be consistent with your King James English.

Yea heaven forbid someone use.......scripture.

 

[DHK]

Are we spiritually dead prior to salvation, or just a bit crippled but still able to seek God?

Well, what sayeth the scriptures:

Romans 8:10, And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:1, And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Colossians 2:13, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

That pretty much ends that argument.

Good scriptures, but you never answered the question.
How do you define the word "dead" used in those scriptures?

 

[Yeshua1]

My prayer would be that the Lord grants unto we calvinists here His grace to speak the truth in love!

 

[DHK]

Once again you seem to have failed to understand the scriptures. Jesus was talking to Jews. He was reminding them that "Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness." Any who turned and looked would live. Here He is drawing a parallel with His crucifixion. All who look to His crucifixion will live. Who will look? Those whom God has drawn (John 6:44). John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

If you confine that one scripture to the Jews there are hundreds of others that are not. The words: all, whosoever, any man, are ubiquitous throughout the NT. We can't ignore them. And they certainly don't all speak of the Jews. Christ died for all. 1John 2:2

So now you are admitting that before you could believe God had to open your eyes? Good! Now you are starting to understand.

I have never denied that the Holy Spirit has had his role to play in the plan of salvation. It is confined mostly to conviction of sin, as per John 16. But in combination with that and the word one's eyes begin to open to an understanding of what the gospel really means. I was a Roman Catholic for 20 years. The facts of the gospel I had heard for many years. But I had never heard a gospel message. The first time I heard that gospel message I trusted Christ as my Saviour. It was then the gospel made sense; how it could be personally applied to my life; how I could have a personal relationship with Christ; how it was my sin that separated me from God, and it was He that paid the penalty for me, not simply a corporate group of people. He made me the object of his love. You will never hear such a personal message of love in Islam or any other religion. I never heard it either in the RCC.

So, you say that God did not give you any reason to have confidence in Him? I already posted this once but you seem to have ignored it so I will post it again: "In the conversion of the sinner God enlightens the mind John 6:45, he inclines the will Psalm 110:3, and he influences the soul by motives, by just views of his law, by his love, his commands, and his threatenings; by a desire of happiness, and a consciousness of danger; by the Holy Spirit applying truth to the mind, and urging him to yield himself to the Saviour. So that, while God inclines him, and will have all the glory, man yields without compulsion; the obstacles are removed, and he becomes a willing servant of God."

Perhaps some of what you say is true. Both of the references you have used refer to the Jews, and at least one of them is referring to the Millennial Kingdom, so I don't really see how they are applicable to what you are trying to prove.
God gave me the confidence I needed to trust in him through his word. Isn't that enough? Certainly the Holy Spirit was there to convict of sin. Read the account on the Day of Pentecost. They heard the Word. They were convicted of their sin. 3,000 were saved. After being convicted by the Holy Spirit what was their response? "Men and brethren what shall we do?" What did they do? They believed. It is only after that happens that a saved man can become a willing servant of God. I don't believe in Lordship salvation. I believe a new believer must go through a process of sanctification. He must grow.

One can only choose that which is within the parameters of his moral condition. That is called "free moral agency." According to the bible the lost man cannot choose salvation. The evil man cannot choose good. Just look at Proverbs 21:4, "An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin."

I have used that verse often, know that you are a strong advocate of the KJV but are not KJVO. Perhaps you can explain it to me. Why does every other translation I read translate it this way. Here is the ASV:

Proverbs 21:4 A high look, and a proud heart, Even the lamp of the wicked, is sin.
--A lamp has nothing to do with plowing.

Now why would the bible say the plowing of the wicked man is sin? Farming is hard work! Hard work is an example of good ethics. You work for what you have. But God says that good hard work is sin! Why? Well, why does the man plow? So he can plant his crops. Why does he plant his crops? So he will have food to eat. Why does he want food to eat? So he can keep up his strength. Why does he want to keep up his strength? So he can continue his rebellion against God!

Anything pertaining to salvation is as "filthy rags in his sight." I can agree with that.

You are under the false impression that the lost man can make choices contrary to his moral nature. The bible proves that to be wrong.

Jesus said: "A good man gives good things to his children; how much more shall your heavenly father give..."
--Did he not imply that the lost could give good things to his children?
--Is not a mother nursing her child a good thing?

A lost man can only continue to be lost. He can only continue to be the enemy of God.

I agree with that. But it is God that seeks out his enemies that they may be reconciled to himself.

And once again tell the same wicked lie, and after I already called you on it in an earlier post and showed you where you were wrong. This tells me quite a bit about you. If you cannot defend your position using the truth you resort, quite easily, it seems, to a lie. Shame on you! The Lord rebuke you!

The Lord will not rebuke me for stating my position. The Bible clearly says that salvation is by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--No clearer statement could be made than right here. You seem to have a problem with this. My position is that this faith, spoken of in this verse is before regeneration. You disagree. I don't believe God is going to rebuke me for disagreeing with you. You tried to show me through two Scriptures that were directed to the Jews, one of which spoke of the Millennial Kingdom.
In John 3:5 speaking of the New Birth, Jesus emphasizes that the Holy Spirit must be involved.
In 1Pet.1:23 speaking of the New Birth, Peter emphasizes that the Word of God must be involved.
I have emphasized the same thing. The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God to bring about the new birth. We accept it by faith.

All the verses I posed were in the exact context we are discussing. "Out of context" is the last resort of the bible denier.

All your verses were not in proper context as I showed you.

When you lie, yes! If you don't want your lies pointed out stop posting them!

I haven't lied.

Actually the bible says salvation is by Grace THROUGH faith. But you say it is YOUR faith! Your faith does not provide God's salvation! Where did YOUR faith come from?

Faith, the confidence or trust to believe is innate within every man. God gives every man faith--the ability to choose between good and evil, right and wrong, to choose to accept or reject Christ. It is not a difficult concept.

Why do you keep changing the subject? You know very well that the "faith" we are talking about is "reliance on God" or "confidence in God." But you keep throwing up this smoke screen about children having "faith" in their parents, yada yada yada. Stick to the subject.

No smokescreen. Faith is faith is faith. It can be used in a secular context as well as a Biblical context. What is important is the object of one's faith. In salvation the object of one's faith must be Christ, or there is no salvation.

As for my assessment, it is you who keeps saying God did not open your eyes or unstop your ears and gave you reason to have confidence in Him. I can only assess you by what you say and you have said it was YOU and not God who gave you that confidence.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
It was not I, but the word of God that gave me the faith to believe in Christ. Faith is the confidence to believe in the word of another, in this case to believe in the promises of Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

Once again the meat of God's word was ignored in favor of the (sour) milk. Here it is again:

It never ceases to amaze me how little understanding some Christians have of the bible and spiritual things.

Everyone in this thread accepts the fact that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." That is a given.

However, many posting here don't seem to realize who it is that will hear!

Again, let's see what the scriptures have to say on the subject.

Romans 10:17 makes it clear that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Who will hear? Jesus makes that very clear in John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

So, Christ makes it very clear that it is His sheep who will hear and follow.

Now comes the good part. If they are his sheep they are already born of the Spirit! Why? Because the bible says so! Romans 8:9b "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

God's word makes it very clear. Faith comes by hearing. Only His sheep hear. His sheep have the Spirit. If they don't have the Spirit they are not His sheep and they do not hear.

It couldn't be more clear. Regeneration, then faith, then justification, then following Christ.

When we just allow the word of God to speak for itself all arguments are over.

 

[DHK]

Again, let's see what the scriptures have to say on the subject.

Romans 10:17 makes it clear that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Who will hear? Jesus makes that very clear in John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

So, Christ makes it very clear that it is His sheep who will hear and follow.

Let's put it in the right order.
First, Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--This is the source of faith. It must come first. Without faith there is no salvation.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
--Those who have believed are already his sheep.
That is why they hear his voice, he knows them, and they follow him.
They cannot know him if they have not first believed. Faith comes first.

Your are right. Christ makes it very clear that it his sheep who will hear and follow. His sheep are those who have believed.

 

[Yeshua1]

It never ceases to amaze me how little understanding some Christians have of the bible and spiritual things.

Everyone in this thread accepts the fact that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." That is a given.

However, many posting here don't seem to realize who it is that will hear!

Again, let's see what the scriptures have to say on the subject.

Romans 10:17 makes it clear that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Who will hear? Jesus makes that very clear in John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

So, Christ makes it very clear that it is His sheep who will hear and follow.

Now comes the good part. If they are his sheep they are already born of the Spirit! Why? Because the bible says so! Romans 8:9b "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

God's word makes it very clear. Faith comes by hearing. Only His sheep hear. His sheep have the Spirit. If they don't have the Spirit they are not His sheep and they do not hear.

It couldn't be more clear. Regeneration, then faith, then justification, then following Christ.

When we just allow the word of God to speak for itself all arguments are over.

Would say to this discussion that while I do hold to cal theology to Sotierology, and that we are spiritually dead until made alive by God again in Christ...

lets keep remembering that we are discussing "in house" issues here, not that one HAS to believe in calvinism to be a real Christian!

 

[TCassidy]

Your are right. Christ makes it very clear that it his sheep who will hear and follow. His sheep are those who have believed.

Ah, but the next statement is that he will give them eternal life.

Please! Give up your pride!

The bible is clear!

Romans 10:17 makes it clear that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Who will hear? Jesus makes that very clear in John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

So, Christ makes it very clear that it is His sheep who will hear and follow.

Now comes the good part. If they are his sheep they are already born of the Spirit! Why? Because the bible says so! Romans 8:9b "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

God's word makes it very clear. Faith comes by hearing. Only His sheep hear. His sheep have the Spirit. If they don't have the Spirit they are not His sheep and they do not hear

They HAVE to be His sheep to hear. And they had to hear to have faith. Very simple progression.

1. He makes them His sheep by regeneration.

2. They hear.

3. They have faith and follow Him.

So, your choice is either accept God's word or reject God's word, your choice.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TC:
1. He makes them His sheep by regeneration.

2. They hear.

3. They have faith and follow Him.

So, your choice is either accept God's word or reject God's word, your choice.

HP:Lets take such logic out to its necessitated logical ends. God makes them His sheep. If so, could any be His sheep that he does not make? Could God have a sheep that He did not know about, or not have a sheep in which chose as a sheep? Determinisitc fatalism rules, devoid of all choice if what you are saying is true.

What is this choice all about you speak of? Choice is absolutely made impossible if you buy into your first point that God has chosen some to regenerate will leaving all others to one end and one end only, i.e., damnation. The choice you speak of is in reality, NO CHOICE AT ALL. Double predestination rules by necessity in the system of thought you are presenting, choice being a chimera.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP:Lets take such logic out to its necessitated logical ends. God makes them His sheep. If so, could any be His sheep that he does not make? Could God have a sheep that He did not know about, or not have a sheep in which chose as a sheep? Determinisitc fatalism rules, devoid of all choice if what you are saying is true.

What is this choice all about you speak of? Choice is absolutely made impossible if you buy into your first point that God has chosen some to regenerate will leaving all others to one end and one end only, i.e., damnation. The choice you speak of is in reality, NO CHOICE AT ALL. Double predestination rules by necessity in the system of thought you are presenting, choice being a chimera.

Do you make a distinction between "fatalism" and Sovereign determiniationism?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Do you make a distinction between "fatalism" and Sovereign determiniationism?

HP: Fatalism is nothing more or less than ends chosen by one that cannot be possibly avoided. One could call it Sovereign fatalism if one so chooses to, as fatalism is fatalism.

One has to build in a true disconnect between God's choice and salvation if fatalism is to be avoided. When one denies the will of man as being that disconnect, fatalism of necessity rules. It is an unavoidable logical consequence of such a system of thought.

So, if I understand your terms as you present them, I would say they are one in the same.

 

[TCassidy]

What is this choice all about you speak of? Choice is absolutely made impossible if you buy into your first point that God has chosen some to regenerate will leaving all others to one end and one end only, i.e., damnation. The choice you speak of is in reality, NO CHOICE AT ALL. Double predestination rules by necessity in the system of thought you are presenting, choice being a chimera.

I was telling DHK it was his choice to either accept God's word or deny it.

Here is the scripture again:

Romans 10:17 makes it clear that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Who will hear? Jesus makes that very clear in John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

So, Christ makes it very clear that it is His sheep who will hear and follow.

Now comes the good part. If they are his sheep they are alreatdy born of the Spirit! Why? Because the bible says so! Romans 8:9b "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

God's word makes it very clear. Faith comes by hearing. Only His sheep hear. His sheep have the Spirit. If they don't have the Spirit they are not His sheep and they do not hear

They HAVE to be His sheep to hear. And they had to hear to have faith. Very simple progression.

You may not like it, but it is scripture.

 

[TCassidy]

Fatalism is nothing more or less than ends chosen by one that cannot be possibly avoided. One could call it Sovereign fatalism if one so chooses to, as fatalism is fatalism.

I will try one more time to deal with this straw man argument.

In the conversion of the sinner God enlightens the mind John 6:45, he inclines the will Psalm 110:3, and he influences the soul by motives, by just views of his law, by his love, his commands, and his threatenings; by a desire of happiness, and a consciousness of danger; by the Holy Spirit applying truth to the mind, and urging him to yield himself to the Saviour. So that, while God inclines him, and will have all the glory, man yields without compulsion; the obstacles are removed, and he becomes a willing servant of God.

See? Not fatalistic at all.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TC: They HAVE to be His sheep to hear. And they had to hear to have faith. Very simple progression.

You may not like it, but it is scripture.

HP: No TC, your fatalistic conclusions deny the clear teachings of Scripture, that plainly show man as not only responsible for his sin, but responsible to voluntarily engage the offer of salvation as it is presented to them. God is not a necessitating force in salvation. God stands at the door and knocks, waiting on man to open the door of their heart and let Him in by fulfilling the conditions He has mandated for salvation to become a reality in our lives.

 

[TCassidy]

HP: No TC, your fatalistic conclusions deny the clear teachings of Scripture, that plainly show man as not only responsible for his sin, but responsible to voluntarily engage the offer of salvation as it is presented to them. God is not a necessitating force in salvation. God stands at the door and knocks, waiting on man to open the door of their heart and let Him in by fulfilling the conditions He has mandated for salvation to become a reality in our lives.

Oh! I understand now!

You can't read!

Tell me what part of:

In the conversion of the sinner God enlightens the mind John 6:45, he inclines the will Psalm 110:3, and he influences the soul by motives, by just views of his law, by his love, his commands, and his threatenings; by a desire of happiness, and a consciousness of danger; by the Holy Spirit applying truth to the mind, and urging him to yield himself to the Saviour. So that, while God inclines him, and will have all the glory, man yields without compulsion; the obstacles are removed, and he becomes a willing servant of God.

you didn't understand and I will try to explain it to you in simple one syllable words.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

No, no! You are not allowed to use the bible to prove your point. You have to ask Michael who will speak "ex cathedra" then you will know for sure.

My point is simply this: Most everyone can "prove" his/her view by posting a scripture. Why do you think there are so many denominations, all claiming to have cornered the truth? And then within those denominations, you have those on opposite ends of the spectrum, all claiming their views are the correct ones.

See, we are all right, it's just that some of us are a little more right than others -- I being one of those (the former, that is).

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Yea heaven forbid someone use.......scripture.

Even you know what I mean.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in proof texting unless it is a proof text used contrary to its immediate context.

And the motive behind one's prooftexting matters, too.

 

[savedbymercy]

tc

I was telling DHK it was his choice to either accept God's word or deny it.

Actually it's not, It's God's choice whether or not one will believe the Truth or not. Those who do, God had chosen them to ! 2 Thess 2:13


13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Jn 17:17

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Everyone Christ died for are the them here, and each of them, in their respective generations in human history, must be set apart by God's Truth which entails believing it. They shall be born again by the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13, and no one has that choice on whether or not they are born again or not, as they did not have that choice to be born the first time or not !