The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel

[DHK]

DHK, before I answer, give us once again your definition of what constitutes a gift, and define what it means for something to be 'spiritual'. Thank you.

A gift is unconditional, like you would give your child at his or her birthday. All he has to do is receive it by faith and nothing more.
There is the spiritual realm and the secular realm. I am sure you can differentiate between the two.

 

[The Biblicist]

Maybe DHK believes abilities to have faith is NOT a gift from God, and rather comes by works? Who knows?

DHK is certainly no Calvinist. He believes that faith is resident within the human nature from birth. I believe it is given (Jn. 6:65) IN regeneration or WITH regeneration or resident in the new birth.

 

[Moriah]

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
How complicated is that statement? Anyone can be saved. Believe and be saved. It is that simple. If you believe you can be saved. Simple enough?

You are the one who said that Christ is the gift and that no unsaved person receives spiritual gifts.

Quote DHK: "If one receives Christ he receives a gift. But he has had that ability for a long time. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. " See reply # 234 http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1835347#post1835347

NO, they don't. They believe they are elect before the foundation of the earth. That is not the same as saved. The elect still must be regenerated so that they may receive the gift of faith, and then they will have the ability to be saved.

They sure do believe they are saved before the creation of the world. That is why Calvinists will say that Cornelius an excluded Gentile was not really excluded, even though the word of God says they were excluded, yet Calvinists debate against that truth because it interferes with their beliefs.

 

[DHK]

You are the one who said that Christ is the gift and that no unsaved person receives spiritual gifts.
Romans 6:23 says that the gift of God is eternal life. That is what I have said. I also said that Jesus Christ is the OBJECT of our faith, not the gift itself. Salvation is the gift.

They sure do believe they are saved before the creation of the world. That is why Calvinists will say that Cornelius an excluded Gentile was not really excluded, even though the word of God says they were excluded, yet Calvinists debate against that truth because it interferes with their beliefs.

I don't know who you have been listening to. If you listen to TCassidy, Biblicist, and SBM, they are all Calvinist, and they all disagree among themselves. And no they don't all agree with the above statements that you have just made.

 

[Moriah]

You are the one who said that Christ is the gift and that no unsaved person receives spiritual gifts.

Romans 6:23 says that the gift of God is eternal life. That is what I have said. I also said that Jesus Christ is the OBJECT of our faith, not the gift itself. Salvation is the gift.

You cannot have salvation without Jesus Christ.

You have also said that a person cannot repent with sorrow until after they are saved. That is Calvinism. For you to believe a person can believe in Jesus, but without any true effect is a dead belief.

I don't know who you have been listening to. If you listen to TCassidy, Biblicist, and SBM, they are all Calvinist, and they all disagree among themselves. And no they don't all agree with the above statements that you have just made.

Ask SBM if he does not believe he was saved before the creation of the world. Ask Biblicist if he was saved before the creation of the world. Ask them and quote them saying no they do not believe that. If they say, they do not believe that, and then ask them if being elected to be saved before the creation of the world secures that, they would be saved if they died before acknowledging God and repenting.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ask Biblicist if he was saved before the creation of the world. Ask them and quote them saying no they do not believe that. If they say, they do not believe that, and then ask them if being elected to be saved before the creation of the world secures that, they would be saved if they died before acknowledging God and repenting.

I do not believe anyone is "saved" before the creation of the world. Election is UNTO (Gr. eis) to salvation (2 Thes. 2:13) but it is not salvation. No one is saved who does not repent and believe in the gospel - period as that is precisely how one knows they are the elect (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

 

[The Biblicist]

I do not believe anyone is "saved" before the creation of the world. Election is UNTO (Gr. eis) to salvation (2 Thes. 2:13) but it is not salvation. No one is saved who does not repent and believe in the gospel - period as that is precisely how one knows they are the elect (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

Saving faith is a gift of God and thus it is "by grace" (Rom. 4:16) as "by grace" are ye saved through faith and THAT not of yourselves for IT is a gift of God not of works."

To be past tense "saved" is "by grace" and "saved" is "through faith" and therefore faith is "by grace" and thus a GIFT of God.

Gentleman, you are all wrong about faith as it is a gift of God and all men have not faith (2 Thes. 3:2) and no man come to Christ by faith except it is "given" unto them by the Father and ALL to whom it is given "EVERYONE" of them comes to Christ (Jn. 6:45) and not one that comes is lost (Jn. 6:39).

 

[Moriah]

Saving faith is a gift of God and thus it is "by grace" (Rom. 4:16) as "by grace" are ye saved through faith and THAT not of yourselves for IT is a gift of God not of works."

To be past tense "saved" is "by grace" and "saved" is "through faith" and therefore faith is "by grace" and thus a GIFT of God.

Gentleman, you are all wrong about faith as it is a gift of God and all men have not faith (2 Thes. 3:2) and no man come to Christ by faith except it is "given" unto them by the Father and ALL to whom it is given "EVERYONE" of them comes to Christ (Jn. 6:45) and not one that comes is lost (Jn. 6:39).

Therefore, you must admit that one is saved before they come to Christ! That is the implications of your beliefs.

 

[Moriah]

I do not believe anyone is "saved" before the creation of the world. Election is UNTO (Gr. eis) to salvation (2 Thes. 2:13) but it is not salvation. No one is saved who does not repent and believe in the gospel - period as that is precisely how one knows they are the elect (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

Since you say that that people were not saved before the creation of the world, then are you admitting that Cornelius was not saved BEFORE he heard the message that saves? You argued with me on another thread saying that Cornelius was saved before he heard the message, and that is how he could fear God! Which is it Biblicist? Was Cornelius saved before or after he heard the message?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Therefore, you must admit that one is saved before they come to Christ! That is the implications of your beliefs.

If one is saved before coming to Christ, then Christ died in vain.

 

[Moriah]

If one is saved before coming to Christ, then Christ died in vain.

That is the implications of Calvinist beliefs.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I never said faith was a gift...... a gift is unconditional...... faith as a spiritual gifts can only be given to believers.

HP: Does anyone wonder why debate is impossible with DHK? it is because he can say anything he so desires at any time, regardless if it is a self contradiction or not, and all while condemning all others that would shed light on his errors.

DHK says in one breath stated he never said faith was a gift. He says in the second breath faith as a spiritual gift can only be given to believers. If that is not a stark contradiction, and a denial of his own words, what can possible be?

Not only that, but he says a gift is unconditional, but obviously it is conditional to him anyway, for God "only gives faith to believers." That is about as conditional as you can get. You have to be a believer to get faith.

If that is not yet enough, he says that you have to be a believer to get faith, YET he says that
"IF you believe you can be saved." Pray tell me how I am to have faith to believe to get saved, if faith comes subsequent to salvation, ONLY to believers as DHK states in yet another breath.


Forget it. I am finished for now with DHK, uttering such utter nonsense and contradictions so glaring that any reasonable person would have to marvel at. You cannot debate this kind of changing rhetoric. DHK changes his written remarks faster than a chameleon changes it colors.

God help us.

 

[The Biblicist]

Therefore, you must admit that one is saved before they come to Christ! That is the implications of your beliefs.

Stop using a generic term "saved"! Define what you mean by "saved"? The term "salvation" covers all aspect of salvation (Gods' eternal covenant; election, Christ's finished work; election, predestination, regeneration, justification, glorification....

So what do you mean "saved" what aspect of salvation are you referring to?? When you use general terms then there can be no precise application and understanding of what you are talking about.

When I use the term "saved" I am referring to the aspects of regeneration and gospel conversion/justification/adoption. As You can see there are several aspects under "saved."

They all occur together but in a cause and consequence order and you and I are arguing over the order of their relationship.

I believe that regeneration is giving a new heart and that new heart is in a condition of faith when given, not after its given, not before it is given - it is a believing heart when it is given and so faith and regeneration are inseparable and occur together not one before the other or one after the other. You on the other hand have this straw man "before" and "after" problem.

 

[Moriah]

HP: Does anyone wonder why debate is impossible with DHK? it is because he can say anything he so desires at any time, regardless if it is a self contradiction or not, and all while condemning all others that would shed light on his errors.

DHK says in one breath he never said faith was a gift. He says in the second breath faith as a spiritual gift can only be given to believers. If that is not a stark contradiction, and a denial of his own words, what can possible be?

Not only that, but he says a gift is unconditional, but obviously it is conditional to him anyway, for God "only gives faith to believers." That is about as conditional as you can get. You have to be a believer to get faith.

If that is not yet enough, he says that you have to be a believer to get faith, YET he says that
"IF you believe you can be saved." Pray tell me how I am to have faith to believe to get saved, if faith comes subsequent to salvation, ONLY to believers as DHK states in yet another breath.


Forget it. I am finished for now with DHK, uttering such utter nonsense and contradictions so glaring that any reasonable person would have to marvel at. You cannot debate this kind of changing rhetoric. DHK changes his written remarks faster than a chameleon changes it colors.

God help us.

It is meaningless to debate DHK since he contradicts himself.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Note the clear similarities in trying to debate him and trying to debate any run of the mill Calvinist. They both hold to and present a maelstrom of confusing and self-contradictory notions.

 

[Moriah]

Stop using a generic term "saved"! Define what you mean by "saved"? The term "salvation" covers all aspect of salvation (Gods' eternal covenant; election, Christ's finished work; election, predestination, regeneration, justification, glorification....

So what do you mean "saved" what aspect of salvation are you referring to?? When you use general terms then there can be no precise application and understanding of what you are talking about.

When I use the term "saved" I am referring to the aspects of regeneration and gospel conversion/justification/adoption. As You can see there are several aspects under "saved."

They all occur together but in a cause and consequence order and you and I are arguing over the order of their relationship.

I believe that regeneration is giving a new heart and that new heart is in a condition of faith when given, not after its given, not before it is given - it is a believing heart when it is given and so faith and regeneration are inseparable and occur together not one before the other or one after the other. You on the other hand have this straw man "before" and "after" problem.

You speak confusion. You need me to define what I mean by saved. Tell me Biblicist, since you believe that you are saved, and was elected before the creation of the world, do you think that you could have died before being regenerated?

 

[Moriah]

Note the clear similarities in trying to debate him and trying to debate any run of the mill Calvinist. They both hold to and present a maelstrom of confusing and self-contradictory notions.

Oh yes I have noted that.

 

[DHK]

HP: Does anyone wonder why debate is impossible with DHK? it is because he can say anything he so desires at any time, regardless if it is a self contradiction or not, and all while condemning all others that would shed light on his errors.

Trouble with reading comprehension skills HP?

DHK says in one breath he never said faith was a gift. He says in the second breath faith as a spiritual gift can only be given to believers. If that is not a stark contradiction, and a denial of his own words, what can possible be?

You are right. Faith is not a gift. Jesus said that unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Even little children have faith, and it isn't spiritual faith he is referring to.
Faith is faith is faith.
In 1Cor.12, faith is spoken of as a spiritual gift. In Gal.5 it is spoken of as one of the fruits of the Spirit. In this sense "faith" is not given to the unbeliever. Faith as a spiritual gift is not given to the unbeliever.

Let me quote a verse for you. Then I want your comment on it.
1 Corinthians 12:4-5 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
--In the early church there were several different spiritual gifts most of them listed in chapter 12. One of them is the gift of administration. President Obama, being the president of your nation, is the high-raking administrator of your nation. Does he have the "spiritual" gift of administration? Why or why not? There are good CEO's aren't there. Do they all have the spiritual gift of administration. No. No unsaved person has the spiritual gift of administration. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. Does that make this any clearer?

Not only that, but he says a gift is unconditional, but obviously it is conditional to him anyway, for God "only gives faith to believers." That is about as conditional as you can get. You have to be a believer to get faith.

There are many administrators in this world that are not saved.
All people have faith. Only the saved have access to what can be deemed "spiritual faith," either as a gift or the fruit of the Spirit.

If that is not yet enough, he says that you have to be a believer to get faith, YET he says that

I never said that. That is what the Calvinist says. Reading comprehension??

"IF you believe you can be saved." Pray tell me how I am to have faith to believe to get saved, if faith comes subsequent to salvation, ONLY to believers as DHK states in yet another breath.

Because I never said that. Reading comprehension??

Forget it. I am finished for now with DHK, uttering such utter nonsense and contradictions so glaring that any reasonable person would have to marvel at. You cannot debate this kind of changing rhetoric. DHK changes his written remarks faster than a chameleon changes it colors.

No need for ugly rhetoric. Just read my posts more carefully, and I am sure you will understand them. God does not gift the fruit of the Holy Spirit to the unsaved, does he.
And yet every man has faith. Does the Muslim have faith in Allah? Yes or no?

 

[Moriah]

Trouble with reading comprehension skills HP?

You are right. Faith is not a gift. Jesus said that unless you have faith as a little child you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Even little children have faith, and it isn't spiritual faith he is referring to.
Faith is faith is faith.
In 1Cor.12, faith is spoken of as a spiritual gift. In Gal.5 it is spoken of as one of the fruits of the Spirit. In this sense "faith" is not given to the unbeliever. Faith as a spiritual gift is not given to the unbeliever.

Let me quote a verse for you. Then I want your comment on it.
1 Corinthians 12:4-5 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
--In the early church there were several different spiritual gifts most of them listed in chapter 12. One of them is the gift of administration. President Obama, being the president of your nation, is the high-raking administrator of your nation. Does he have the "spiritual" gift of administration? Why or why not? There are good CEO's aren't there. Do they all have the spiritual gift of administration. No. No unsaved person has the spiritual gift of administration. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved people. Does that make this any clearer?

There are many administrators in this world that are not saved.
All people have faith. Only the saved have access to what can be deemed "spiritual faith," either as a gift or the fruit of the Spirit.

I never said that. That is what the Calvinist says. Reading comprehension??

Because I never said that. Reading comprehension??

No need for ugly rhetoric. Just read my posts more carefully, and I am sure you will understand them. God does not gift the fruit of the Holy Spirit to the unsaved, does he.
And yet every man has faith. Does the Muslim have faith in Allah? Yes or no?

The kind of faith you claim a person can have in Jesus before Jesus saves a person is no faith. To say a person does not even have to be sorry for their sins is proof that you contradict yourself. It is a dead faith that you believe we can have and still be saved.

 

[DHK]

The kind of faith you claim a person can have in Jesus before Jesus saves a person is no faith. To say a person does not even have to be sorry for their sins is proof that you contradict yourself. It is a dead faith that you believe we can have and still be saved.

Where in the Bible does it say a person must be sorry for their sins in order to be saved?
It doesn't. You have been challenged about that before and have failed to produce any evidence. Nowhere does it say a person must be sorry for their sins to be saved. Judas was sorry for his sins and went to hell. That type of preaching will end with the same results.