The Freewill Invitation system is a False Gospel

[DHK]

Still dodging the question. Here, I will repost it: What part did a child have in his own conception and birth?

Please. Stop dodging, weaving, and avoiding the obvious. It just makes you look stupid.

The question is irrelevant. I would assume that even you believe in "an age of accountability," or an age of understanding. Faith is irrelevant at conception for at conception no person can understand anything.

And calling my intelligence into question doesn't do you any good either.
You sound like a Catholic putting up an argument for infant baptism.

 

[DHK]

So, you claim the lost man, who the bible says is the enemy of God, has confidence in His word?

No, I didn't say that at all. I defined faith as: "confidence in the word of another."
If a man asks a taxi driver to take him to the airport, he puts faith in the words of that taxi driver that he will take him to the airport and not some slum area of the city. That is faith. The object of the faith is the taxi driver, not Christ. It is the object of the faith that is important.

Translation: Your question completely demolishes my position so I will claim it is moot.

A question about conception has nothing to do with faith.

Exactly. Faith is when a man's blind eyes are opened to the truth, when his deaf ears are opened to the word. And you claim that a blind man can give back his own sight and a deaf man can cause himself to hear even though the bible says differently.

I quoted to you Romans 10:17.
One must hear the gospel in order to believe in it.
It is the Word, the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation.
The preaching of the gospel is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
God uses his word. Faith comes from hearing the Word of God. After hearing and understanding the Word, then man must make a choice whether to believe or reject it. God does not force him to make it.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
--Those of Stephen's generation chose to resist the Spirit and the message of God.

 

[TCassidy]

No, I didn't say that at all. I defined faith as: "confidence in the word of another."

You claim that a lost man has faith in Christ and that results in his salvation. The bible is clear that the lost man is the enemy of God, but you claim the lost enemy of God has confidence in His word. How utterly idiotic!

A question about conception has nothing to do with faith.

So Jesus was wrong to equate regeneration with birth? "Born AGAIN." So, you are saying that Jesus was wrong in John 3:3 and John 3:7 and that Peter was wrong in 1 Peter 1:23?

 

[steaver]

Faith is when a man's blind eyes are opened to the truth, when his deaf ears are opened to the word. And you claim that a blind man can give back his own sight and a deaf man can cause himself to hear even though the bible says differently.Still dodging the question.

Merely seeing the truth is not having faith. The Holy Spirit opens the eyes of countless individuals to the truth, but not all will accept the truth and place faith in that truth.

It's like the man running a wheelbarrow accross a tight rope with a couple hundred pounds in it over and over. You never seen him fail to do it, but when he asked if you will get into the wheelbarrow and go accross, then you have to exercise some faith and go or say "no I will not put my faith in you".

I know many people after witnessing to them will "see" what i am saying, or rather what God's Word is saying, but will say "maybe another day".

 

[steaver]

Even Judas was not blind to the miracles of Jesus and even participated in the power of God, yet he decided to NOT have faith in Jesus.

 

[TCassidy]

Merely seeing the truth is not having faith. The Holy Spirit opens the eyes of countless individuals to the truth, but not all will accept the truth and place faith in that truth.

It's like the man running a wheelbarrow accross a tight rope with a couple hundred pounds in it over and over. You never seen him fail to do it, but when he asked if you will get into the wheelbarrow and go accross, then you have to exercise some faith and go or say "no I will not put my faith in you".

I know many people after witnessing to them will "see" what i am saying, or rather what God's Word is saying, but will say "maybe another day".

You seem to have missed the point. Allow me to post the entire phrase I posted earlier. "But, as I said in my earlier post, faith is not a commodity had by man or given by God. When I say that God gives us faith as a gift, I don't mean that he passes on a substance called faith to us, it means that he opens our blind eyes, unplugs our deaf ears and grants us a new heart and spirit so we will believe. (Ezek 36:27; Matt 16:15-17; John 5:21, 6:63-65) Both faith and obedience are equally impossible apart from renewal of heart."

I don't wish to sound unkind but this discussion is just a bit deeper than a Sunday School illustration.

 

[DHK]

You claim that a lost man has faith in Christ and that results in his salvation. The bible is clear that the lost man is the enemy of God, but you claim the lost enemy of God has confidence in His word. How utterly idiotic!

James 4:4 says that a believer who is a friend of the world is the enemy of God. So what is your point?
The Bible teaches that salvation is by faith alone. Nothing I can do about that. Yes, a lost man puts his faith in Christ (like the Philippian jailer), and he is saved. That is what happened, is it not? That is what happened with the Ethiopian eunuch. He heard the word, believed, and was saved. And so it has been repeated over and over again. Call it idiotic, but that is the testimony of Scripture.

So Jesus was wrong to equate regeneration with birth? "Born AGAIN." So, you are saying that Jesus was wrong in John 3:3 and John 3:7 and that Peter was wrong in 1 Peter 1:23?

I believe that many times people take those illustrations too far, perhaps misunderstand the real import behind what is being taught. They try and make them stand on all fours, so to speak.

 

[TCassidy]

James 4:4 says that a believer who is a friend of the world is the enemy of God. So what is your point?
The Bible teaches that salvation is by faith alone. Nothing I can do about that. Yes, a lost man puts his faith in Christ (like the Philippian jailer), and he is saved. That is what happened, is it not?

You have, once again, dodged the issue. The bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith. How does a lost man, dead in trespass and sin, and an enemy of God, have faith in God UNLESS God opens his blind eyes, unstops his deaf ears, renews his heart and spirit so that he can believe. You keep trying to make salvation something based on man's works rather than God's grace.

That is what happened with the Ethiopian eunuch. He heard the word, believed, and was saved. And so it has been repeated over and over again.

Yes, he heard the word, and because God opened his eyes and unstopped his ears, and gave him a new heart, he was enabled to believe and come to Christ.

Call it idiotic, but that is the testimony of Scripture.

Please! It is your idiotic works based salvation that is idiotic.

I believe that many times people take those illustrations too far, perhaps misunderstand the real import behind what is being taught. They try and make them stand on all fours, so to speak.

Yes, of course, it the bible mitigates against your position it must be because the bible doesn't really mean what it says!

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe that the Lord "opens/enables" us to be able to 'freely' respond to the gospel message, that the Holy Spirit enables us to be able to hear the Gospel message and have faith apllied to jesus and get saved!

I also hold that the Grace to have the means to hear and respond is provoded by god JUST to those he chose/elected to receive jesus and get saved...

To me , happens from our perspective same time...

God enables/convicts/alows me to produce faith in jesus while hearing the gospel message...

 

[steaver]

I don't wish to sound unkind but this discussion is just a bit deeper than a Sunday School illustration.

Or, maybe you are a bit into it deeper than it goes! :smilewinkgrin:


"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Throw down your shovel man!!!!! It's not that deep!!!!!:laugh:

 

[TCassidy]

Or, maybe you are a bit into it deeper than it goes! :smilewinkgrin:


"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Throw down your shovel man!!!!! It's not that deep!!!!!:laugh:

I am sorry. I did not mean to go so far over your head. Soteriology is not as simplistic as you seem to believe. The very existence of this thread should be all the proof you need to understand that very important fact.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am sorry. I did not mean to go so far over your head. Soteriology is not as simplistic as you seem to believe. The very existence of this thread should be all the proof you need to understand that very important fact.

best example is the eternal discussion/debates here between the cals/Arms/Non cals!

 

[steaver]

I am sorry. I did not mean to go so far over your head. Soteriology is not as simplistic as you seem to believe. The very existence of this thread should be all the proof you need to understand that very important fact.

Tell us how you were saved Cassidy, please share what it took for you to believe.

 

[TCassidy]

Tell us how you were saved Cassidy, please share what it took for you to believe.

First of all, and it may just be my advanced age, but I was taugh that calling someone by only his last name was rude. I am sure you didn't mean to be rude, but nevertheless that is the message I received.

How was I saved? Simple. As an adult of 27 years of age I was invited to a church service where an evangelist was preaching. During that preaching service I came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that I was a sinner, lost, and undone, and my sin had separated me from a loving God. This was a result of God drawing me to the Son (John 6:44) and Him opening my blind eyes and unstopping my deaf ears and giving me a new heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26) and by His enabling Grace I could now believe that Christ died on the cross for my sins, was buried, and rose again for my justification. Nothing has been the same since.

And you?

 

[TCassidy]

best example is the eternal discussion/debates here between the cals/Arms/Non cals!

Yes, it seemed a bit silly to me to suggest this was a simple issue.

 

[mandym]

Soteriology is not as simplistic as you seem to believe.

Hogwash, its very simple except to Calvinist who like to think that God has granted them a special ability to read between the lines where no one else can. You have just expressed a classic example of the arrogance of Calvinists.

 

[TCassidy]

Hogwash, its very simple except to Calvinist who like to think that God has granted them a special ability to read between the lines where no one else can. You have just expressed a classic example of the arrogance of Calvinists.

I am sorry I did not make myself understandable. Please let me know what it was that you didn't understand and I will try to explain it to you.

Oh, and there is a big difference between arrogance and confidence. Perhaps you mistook the latter for the former.

 

[DHK]

You have, once again, dodged the issue. The bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith. How does a lost man, dead in trespass and sin, and an enemy of God, have faith in God UNLESS God opens his blind eyes, unstops his deaf ears, renews his heart and spirit so that he can believe. You keep trying to make salvation something based on man's works rather than God's grace.

I don't dodge the issue. I simply quoted the Bible for you.
Acts 16:31. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
--It can't get much simpler than that.

In Eph.2:8 We are saved by grace through faith.
The grace refers to the grace that Christ offered to us on the cross. There is no greater example of grace than what Christ sacrificed for us when he shed his blood on our behalf. That is grace.
The faith is the means of our salvation, wherein we accept the grace that is offered us.
You keep say that God has to give us faith in order to be saved.
It is a ridiculous position in that you say that man must receive God's faith to believe God. Man becomes a robot, a pawn in the hand of God without any will. Is there a command that says: Believe God with God's faith? But that is what you are teaching.
Faith is not a work.
Even if you call faith a work, then you also believe in a works-based salvation, for you also have faith preceding salvation.

Yes, he heard the word, and because God opened his eyes and unstopped his ears, and gave him a new heart, he was enabled to believe and come to Christ.

In each and every testimony (including your own) you add those words [God opened his eyes and unstopped his ears, and gave him a new heart, he was enabled to believe].
But they are not in any of the Biblical accounts. They are simply your interpretation of the account. That is not what it says in the account of the Philippian jailer or of the Ethiopian Eunuch. In the latter it simply says: "And Philip began at the same Scripture and preached unto him Jesus." The sense there is that it is the power of the Word that brought that man to Christ. His eyes were opened because of the Word. Faith comes because of the Word. He believed because he understood the Word, and believed in Christ.
"Do you believe that Christ is the Son of God." I believe.

Please! It is your idiotic works based salvation that is idiotic.

Again, you put faith before salvation also. If I have a works-based salvation, then so do you. I did like your statement awhile back. "It all happens "in the twinkling of an eye."

Yes, of course, it the bible mitigates against your position it must be because the bible doesn't really mean what it says!

I believe what God says, and I believe that I can put the Scripture in harmony with itself without reading things into it which are not there.

 

[TCassidy]

I don't dodge the issue. I simply quoted the Bible for you.
Acts 16:31. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
--It can't get much simpler than that.

Yes. And WHO will believe? The one drawn to Christ by God. John 6:44, which you deny.

In Eph.2:8 We are saved by grace through faith.
The grace refers to the grace that Christ offered to us on the cross. There is no greater example of grace than what Christ sacrificed for us when he shed his blood on our behalf. That is grace.
The faith is the means of our salvation, wherein we accept the grace that is offered us.
You keep say that God has to give us faith in order to be saved.
It is a ridiculous position in that you say that man must receive God's faith to believe God.

So, you deny that God opens the eyes of the blind and opens the ears of the deaf and opens the hearts of the lost. Fine. Do me a favor. Get a job driving a cab. If you preach that vile heresy you will hurt a lot of people.

Man becomes a robot, a pawn in the hand of God without any will.

So, you also deny that God has the power to change our will? How sad.

Is there a command that says: Believe God with God's faith? But that is what you are teaching.

Once again you distort what I said so you won't have to admit your heresy. God opens the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf and the hearts of the lost. It is sad that you deny God the right to do so and demand you come to Him on the basis of your own goodness.

Faith is not a work.

No, it is a gift from God. That is what I have been saying all along. It is you who keeps saying that everybody has it.

Even if you call faith a work, then you also believe in a works-based salvation, for you also have faith preceding salvation.

Wrong again. Regeneration is the first event in the ordo salutis as it pertains to man.

In each and every testimony (including your own) you add those words [God opened his eyes and unstopped his ears, and gave him a new heart, he was enabled to believe].
But they are not in any of the Biblical accounts. They are simply your interpretation of the account. That is not what it says in the account of the Philippian jailer or of the Ethiopian Eunuch. In the latter it simply says: "And Philip began at the same Scripture and preached unto him Jesus." The sense there is that it is the power of the Word that brought that man to Christ. His eyes were opened because of the Word. Faith comes because of the Word. He believed because he understood the Word, and believed in Christ.
"Do you believe that Christ is the Son of God." I believe.

So now you are saying that Ezek 36:27; Matt 16:15-17; John 5:21, 6:63-65 are not inspired scripture? They are wrong?

Again, you put faith before salvation also. If I have a works-based salvation, then so do you. I did like your statement awhile back. "It all happens "in the twinkling of an eye."

No matter how many times you tell the lie it will never become truth. And, again, the ordu salutis is logical not temporal. But you keep ignoring that fact.

I believe what God says, and I believe that I can put the Scripture in harmony with itself without reading things into it which are not there.

If you think you, or your self manufactured "faith," is good enough to approach a Holy God on your/its own merit you are sadly mistaken. I pity you. Your pride is so strong you refuse to give God ALL the glory in salvation. You want to hang on to some of it for yourself.

 

[TCassidy]

Wow! Hear is some really good stuff!

Draw him - This word is used here, evidently, to denote such an influence from God as to secure the result, or as to incline the mind to believe; yet the manner in which this is done is not determined by the use of the word. (It tells up "what" but not "how.")

It is used in the New Testament six times.

Once it is applied to a compulsory drawing of Paul and Silas to the market-place, Acts 16:19.

Twice it is used to denote the drawing of a net, John 21:6, John 21:11.

Once to the drawing of a sword John 18:10;

and once in a sense similar to its use here John 12:32; "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

What is its meaning here must be determined by the facts about the sinner's conversion.

In the conversion of the sinner God enlightens the mind John 6:45, he inclines the will Psalm 110:3, and he influences the soul by motives, by just views of his law, by his love, his commands, and his threatenings; by a desire of happiness, and a consciousness of danger; by the Holy Spirit applying truth to the mind, and urging him to yield himself to the Saviour. So that, while God inclines him, and will have all the glory, man yields without compulsion; the obstacles are removed, and he becomes a willing servant of God.

My prayer is that every Arminian on the BB takes that truth to heart.