The Freewillers Shell Game part 1.

[jne1611]

So, you are telling me that God "foreknew us" and "predestinated us" before the foundation of the world but gave us faith when we believed. In other words we were already "intimitate with God" , already predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son without any faith?

Bob, please don't go that route. We both know your argument & mine would have no force at all without all the things accomplished in time having no root in eternity. Can you not see, all the things listed in Rom 8. find their root in eternity? In God?

 

[jne1611]

How could God speak of the things in the Revelation as being done, when they were yet future? They were settled, no alteration in Gods counsel.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
So, you are telling me that God "foreknew us" and "predestinated us" before the foundation of the world but gave us faith when we believed. In other words we were already "intimitate with God" , already predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son without any faith?
Bob, please don't go that route. We both know your argument & mine would have no force at all without all the things accomplished in time having no root in eternity. Can you not see, all the things listed in Rom 8. find their root in eternity?

What kind of answer is that. I simply followed your answers and replied and now you are accusing me of taking some different route? You and James have done this over and over to escape giving an answer when you know it blows your theory.
Don't forget now, James is holding a "big bomb" over our heads that he is going to drop unawares and make known unto us all the mysteries! Be ready!!!!

What is so hard when you and James have both said that God was "intimate" with those He "foreknew" before the foundation of the world. Also, that He has already predestinated them saved. Why would they need faith when they believed in Christ it it was already done? A very simple question.

 

[jne1611]

What kind of answer is that. I simply followed your answers and replied and now you are accusing me of taking some different route? You and James have done this over and over to escape giving an answer when you know it blows your theory.
Don't forget now, James is holding a "big bomb" over our heads that he is going to drop unawares and make known unto us all the mysteries! Be ready!!!!

OK. Bob. Here it is. God foreknew us "purposed to have a special relationship with us" in eternity. Where was this relationship to be founded? In Christ! He foreknew us in Christ Predestined us in Christ, Chose us in Christ, Called us in Christ, Justified us in Christ. All of His plan centered in on Christ. This is where the root of our relationship is based.
To say that God giving us faith in time means that our intimate relationship with Him in eternity is made void is meaningless. For He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. So ALL the things included, even faith, find their root in God before the world began.

 

[Brother Bob]

To say that God giving us faith in time means that our intimate relationship with Him is made void is meaningless. For He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. So ALL the things included,( even faith, find their root in God before the world began.)

It proves that if God "foreknew us" and all about us that who would believe then He also "foreknew" who to predestinate.

(When did God give us that faith?
When we received Christ or Believed on him.)

You will admit there is a big difference in these two answers won't you?

OK. Bob. Here it is. God foreknew us "purposed to have a special relationship with us" in eternity. Where was this relationship to be founded? In Christ! He foreknew us in Christ Predestined us in Christ, Chose us in Christ, Called us in Christ, Justified us in Christ. All of His plan centered in on Christ. This is where the root of our relationship is based.
To say that God giving us faith in time means that our intimate relationship with Him in eternity is made void is meaningless. For He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. So ALL the things included, even faith, find their root in God before the world began.

No, according to you and James "foreknew" is an intimate relationship, not in the future but when he "foreknew". So God had a intimate relationship with you before the world began according to your previous posts.

Were you Glorified also before the foundation of the world?

 

[jne1611]

You will admit there is a big difference in these two answers won't you?


No, according to you and James "foreknew" is an intimate relationship, not in the future but when he "foreknew". So God had a intimate relationship with you before the world began according to your previous posts.

Were you Glorified also before the foundation of the world?

Yes, I guess we stand on two different grounds if you are saying that all we have as far as our relationship with God is concerned started only after we believed.
In the scope of God's plan. My glorification has already happened yet not yet manifested! Notice the glorified, past tense. Paul is talking about something yet future for the believer, but counted done as far as God is concerned.
Notice in Rev. 20:10 "cast" into the lake of fire. This language explains this event as though it has already happened, but it is still yet future. But God counts it done.
Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Bob, are you actually going to say that God is saying to Jeremiah, that He knew that before he was born, he would choose God & be a good preacher & based on that information, God chose to ordain him to be a prophet?
The language is clear. A personal knowledge of him even before his birth!

 

[reformedbeliever]

You guys might as well give it up. Bob believes that God has to see ahead of time who will believe so that He can learn who to predestinate. He fails to see that God has absolutely nothing to learn from man. God is all knowing..... He has no need to see (learn) who would believe.

 

[jne1611]

You guys might as well give it up. Bob believes that God has to see ahead of time who will believe so that He can learn who to predestinate. He fails to see that God has absolutely nothing to learn from man. God is all knowing..... He has no need to see (learn) who would believe.

I have been trying to see Bob's point of view & think I now understand him to see our whole relationship with God to be established after creation and not before, so your right, there is no common ground on this on for us to build on.

 

[Jarthur001]

You guys might as well give it up. Bob believes that God has to see ahead of time who will believe so that He can learn who to predestinate. He fails to see that God has absolutely nothing to learn from man. God is all knowing..... He has no need to see (learn) who would believe.

Hello reformedbeliever...

Yes...this is point we will see later, as we place all of this together.

I always ask it this way...

When did God know what He knows?
We will get to that later. Just having fun now.

***Let it be known that freewillers still have not addressed this...

If God foreknows (as used by freewillers) before God predestined, this is hyper-Calvinism other then God is not in control. In this view, what God sees will happen, God must make happen, or what He saw was not really the end of things. God is limited and controlled by what man does. If God changes things in this view God would be changing what He foreknow would happen. If God did this changing, why did He not know about the change? God must do as He saw “done” in the future, or God did not really see the end.

I do wonder why.

******************

Back to the subject for a few more pages.

Who did God predestined?

 

[James_Newman]

Who did God predestined?

He predestined those who were going to be reigning with Jesus in the kingdom.

 

[Brother Bob]

You guys might as well give it up. Bob believes that God has to see ahead of time who will believe so that He can
learn who to predestinate. He fails to see that God has absolutely nothing to learn from man. God is all knowing..... He has no
need to see (learn) who would believe.

Now, I see your problem. You are judging everything by time. Even "foreknow" is all about time. Well, you fail to recognize

that God is without time and does not have to see in the future or the past for He sees all at once and forever. He is

everlasting to everlasting and the same time He saw you believe, He saw you Predestinated, Justified, Glorified.

Now to James question of Him looking into the future and having to do what the future held. He said I am the beginning and

the end, I am everlasting to everlasting and all three of you fellows fail to see a "timeless" God that sees it all at once. There

is no past with Him and there is no future with Him. There would have to be time with him for that to happen. Time is for man

not God. The scriptures were written for man, not God. They are His Scriptures, He is the word. So, when James says He has

to look into the future and see what happens is what free-willers say, is absolutely wrong. We say or at least I do, God sees

everything at once. As has already been said, He sees jne "Glorified", well to do that He would have to see jne's "death and

resurrection" of which He does for He is timeless.

Now, wrestle and have fun with that Jamie boy.

Oh, drop the bomb now. We are all ready!! I laugh out of control all the time when you say "the big one is coming". It makes me thinks of the "honeymooners".

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

He didn't have to look ahead jne. He saw all that Jer was and would ever be all at once.

When you say "foreknow". If it means God then before what? God foreknew before what when He knows all.
I think even you believes He knows "all". Well, if He knows all He "foreknew" before what?

 

[Jarthur001]

Now, I see your problem. You are judging everything by time. Even "foreknow" is all about time. Well, you fail to recognize

that God is without time and does not have to see in the future or the past for He sees all at once and forever. He is

everlasting to everlasting and the same time He saw you believe, He saw you Predestinated, Justified, Glorified.

Now to James question of Him looking into the future and having to do what the future held. He said I am the beginning and

the end, I am everlasting to everlasting and all three of you fellows fail to see a "timeless" God that sees it all at once. There

is no past with Him and there is no future with Him. There would have to be time with him for that to happen. Time is for man

not God. The scriptures were written for man, not God. They are His Scriptures, He is the word. So, when James says He has

to look into the future and see what happens is what free-willers say, is absolutely wrong. We say or at least I do, God sees

everything at once. As has already been said, He sees jne "Glorified", well to do that He would have to see jne's "death and

resurrection" of which He does for He is timeless.

Now, wrestle and have fun with that Jamie boy.

Oh, drop the bomb now. We are all ready!! I laugh out of control all the time when you say "the big one is coming". It makes me thinks of the "honeymooners".


He didn't have to look ahead jne. He saw all that Jer was and would ever be all at once.

When you say "foreknow". If it means God then before what? God foreknew before what when He knows all.
I think even you believes He knows "all". Well, if He knows all He "foreknew" before what?

And the shell game begins.

As I said in the OP this would be one TRY. This does not work...as shown in the OP.

As far as dropping a bomb, not sure what you mean. But..I have fond out in the past, with some people you must go real slooooooow just as we seen in the beginning of this thread, or it goes over their head.

 

[Jarthur001]

He predestined those who were going to be reigning with Jesus in the kingdom.

If this was done before man was made, how did He know this?

and....

When it says God foreknew, does God also know who would not believe?

 

[Brother Bob]

As far as dropping a bomb, not sure what you mean. But..I have fond out in the past, with some people you must go real slooooooow just as we seen in the beginning of this thread, or it goes over their head.

Oh, your selfrighteousnes is showing again James. You must spend a lot of time in front of the mirror. Also, if you would look through the threads that have been closed where I was involved? You were the other one there.

Now at this point we often hear about God and time. This is yet another shell game, but it will come up, so we must address it as well. God is outside of time. Man is not. Man is made by God. Man is elect. When God elects man, being that man is time, God elects a man in time. Therefore all words addressing time God placed in the Bible to give the right meaning to us. If God says Christ will return, this means it will happen. If the Bible says God made the world in 6 days, it means 6 days. If the Bible says Christ arose from the grave in 3 days, it means 3 days. 1 day is like a 1000 years…means 1 real day…is like 1000 real years with the Lord. Weeks have a few meanings…but they always mean time frames.

So, when we read God foreknew us before the world was made, this means God foreknew us before the world was made.

This is the OP and as you can see the two statements in bold contradict themselves, time was not before the world was made.

You also fail to recognize that all those times you mentioned were for "man" and not God. What would God need time for?

 

[Jarthur001]

Lets go ahead and get started on this...

Note the meaning is no longer the problem....it is now time.

Now, I see your problem. You are judging everything by time. Even "foreknow" is all about time. Well, you fail to recognize

Now, wrestle and have fun with that Jamie boy.

Oh, drop the bomb now. We are all ready!! I laugh out of control all the time when you say "the big one is coming". It makes me thinks of the "honeymooners".

[/QUOTE]
Lets see how the shell game plays out.....

This should be fun.


1) When God made the world, and being that He was the only one there, was God right in saying He made it in 6 days, or could 6 days really mean it always was, because in your view, God is outside of time?


2) When Christ, Gods Son said He would raise from the dead in 3 days, was this really 3 days, or because time has no meaning to God in your view, could it also mean Christ rose in 33 years and 18 days?


3) If God wanted man to think God know us when the world was not made, would the word "before" be a good word to use? If not, what word should God have used?

 

[Brother Bob]

1) When God made the world, and being that He was the only one there, was God right in saying He made it in 6 days, or could 6 days really mean it always was, because in your view, God is outside of time?


2) When Christ, Gods Son said He would raise from the dead in 3 days, was this really 3 days, or because time has no meaning to God in your view, could it also mean Christ rose in 33 years and 18 days?


3) If God wanted man to think God know us when the world was not made, would the word "before" be a good word to use? If not, what word should God have used?

This should be easy.

1. The time was after the earth was created and for man and the scripture about 6 days is for man and not God for He is timeless so it can't be for God.

2. Again, the 3 days were for man because God said as far as time that a thousand years were as yesterday, so can you imagine what 3 days would be to God.

3. Do you know what the world is James. There is the church and there is the world.

Psa 9:8And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Show me where the world was mentioned in the beginning of time?

Jauthor001;

As far as dropping a bomb, not sure what you mean. But..I have fond out in the past, with some people you must go real slooooooow just as we seen in the beginning of this thread, or it goes over their head.

I thought this was deserving of a reprint.

 

[Jarthur001]

Oh, your selfrighteousnes is showing again James. You must spend a lot of time in front of the mirror. Also, if you would look through the threads that have been closed where I was involved? You were the other one there.

This is the OP and as you can see the two statements in bold contradict themselves, time was not before the world was made.

You also fail to recognize that all those times you mentioned were for "man" and not God. What would God need time for?

We have moved from..." No that is not the meaning of the word...to time"

Now..the hits sart coming.

ok...now lets review your last statement..

Now at this point we often hear about God and time. This is yet another shell game, but it will come up, so we must address it as well. God is outside of time. Man is not. Man is made by God. Man is elect. When God elects man, being that man is time, God elects a man in time. Therefore all words addressing time God placed in the Bible to give the right meaning to us. If God says Christ will return, this means it will happen. If the Bible says God made the world in 6 days, it means 6 days. If the Bible says Christ arose from the grave in 3 days, it means 3 days. 1 day is like a 1000 years…means 1 real day…is like 1000 real years with the Lord. Weeks have a few meanings…but they always mean time frames.

So, when we read God foreknew us before the world was made, this means God foreknew us before the world was made.

The next shell movement coming up...

You said the above does not jive. humm.

Man IS part of TIME. Before God MADE...there was no time. What did God make? rocks, trees, dog, man. Time is a measurement of change of matter.

1) Please tell me how you can have time without matter.

 

[Brother Bob]

Depend on what you say the "world" is James.

Show me where the world was mentioned in the beginning of time.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines time as "the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future, regarded as a whole."

I don't see nothing about no rocks here James.

 

[Jarthur001]

This should be easy.

1. The time was after the earth was created and for man and the scripture about 6 days is for man and not God for He is timeless so it can't be for God.

really? Before you said God was outside of time. So when God said 6 days...does God mean 6 days? If we cannot understand this..."before the world was made"...how can we believe.."made in 6 days"? Do we believe the Bible or not??

2. Again, the 3 days were for man because God said as far as time that a thousand years were as yesterday, so can you imagine what 3 days would be to God.

What is 1000 years? is 1000s year time?

3. Do you know what the world is James. There is the church and there is the world.

i do not see a yes or a no. Maybe I need to repost.

I asked...

3) If God wanted man to think God know us when the world was not made, would the word "before" be a good word to use? If not, what word should God have used?

well...does before in Gods word mean before?

In Christ...Jamie your boy.

 

[Brother Bob]

really? Before you said God was outside of time. So when God said 6 days...does God mean 6 days? If we cannot understand this..."before the world was made"...how can we believe.."made in 6 days"? Do we believe the Bible or not??

show me where it says "before the world was made".

What is 1000 years? is 1000s year time?

We talking with Man or God?
1. With man 1000 years = 1000 years

2. With God One scripture says 1000 years is as one day and one day as a 1000 years with God. Another scripture says with God a 1000 years is as yesterday.

3. Before what James. Are you talking about man or God. With God there is no before. He used before for man's sake not His.

Using God's time there is no "before" or after for He has always been, with no beginning or not end so how could you measure that?