The Freewillers Shell Game part 1.

[Jarthur001]

God is atemporal but can work in temporal at His will.


Scripture only take me back to the beginning of time. No man has known the mind of God and certainly not I. Scripture says He foreknew before the foundation of the world.

Good...then your claim to a big "problem" was not so big...now was it?

 

[Brother Bob]

Jauthor001;
As far as dropping a bomb, not sure what you mean. But..I have fond out in the past, with some people you must go real slooooooow just as we seen in the beginning of this thread, or it goes over their head.

You lost me here Jamie boy?

Good...then your claim to a big "problem" was not so big...now was it?


Could you give me some answers on the following Jamie boy?

If God knows all things then He certainly knows who believes so no big deal to know who to predestinate.


THE EARTH WAS NOT MADE BY GOD??????? I love it!!! haha

Who made the earth then James?


Scripture only take me back to the beginning of time. No man has known the mind of God and certainly not I. Scripture says He foreknew before the foundation of the world.

Can you go back farther than the scriptues Jamie boy?



Good...then your claim to a big "problem" was not so big...now was it?

What does this mean Jamie boy?

Lesson 10,001
Creation by BBob

Genesis 1



"1": In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

"2": And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

"3": And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

"4": And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

"5": And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


And time began.

 

[Jarthur001]

You lost me here Jamie boy?

Good...then your claim to a big "problem" was not so big...now was it?

Good...then your claim to a big "problem" was not so big...now was it?

As you said..

Now, I see your problem. You are judging everything by time. Even "foreknow" is all about time. Well, you fail to recognize that God is without time and does not have to see in the future or the past for He sees all at once and forever

.

and...before we drop this and get back to the subject and away from the "foreseen" shell game of time. My statement in the OP was not so bad...then was it?

OP...

Now at this point we often hear about God and time. This is yet another shell game, but it will come up, so we must address it as well. God is outside of time. Man is not. Man is made by God. Man is elect. When God elects man, being that man is time, God elects a man in time. Therefore all words addressing time God placed in the Bible to give the right meaning to us. If God says Christ will return, this means it will happen. If the Bible says God made the world in 6 days, it means 6 days. If the Bible says Christ arose from the grave in 3 days, it means 3 days. 1 day is like a 1000 years…means 1 real day…is like 1000 real years with the Lord. Weeks have a few meanings…but they always mean time frames.

Not that you agree fully, but you now have said that God indeed can work IN TIME. God is both atemporal temporal as He works with temporal things. If God talks to man...God is in time. God makes it rain...God is touching TIME for it rains in TIME.

This time game always comes up with forknowing and it is bogus. My feeling is God is forever!! God was before time, but when God made time...HE not only made it, but HE works in it as HE works with creation....for creation is part of time. All time is, is the spinning of the earth or the earth movement around the sun...or the moons movement around the earth. We just count how many times it does this...and this is time. Bottom line..God made time and uses it and when he uses words about time...GOD MEANS IT.

We really didn't get to the end of things...but I'll drop it now that you agree. For some reason, I bet it comes up again. Maybe not this week...but someday. Shall we move back to the subject "foreknow"...so that we can get to what you call the bomb?



In Christ...our little son....Jamie the boy.

 

[Jarthur001]

You lost me here Jamie boy?

Good...then your claim to a big "problem" was not so big...now was it?


Could you give me some answers on the following Jamie boy?

If God knows all things then He certainly knows who believes so no big deal to know who to predestinate.


THE EARTH WAS NOT MADE BY GOD??????? I love it!!! haha

Who made the earth then James?


Scripture only take me back to the beginning of time. No man has known the mind of God and certainly not I. Scripture says He foreknew before the foundation of the world.

Can you go back farther than the scriptues Jamie boy?



Good...then your claim to a big "problem" was not so big...now was it?

What does this mean Jamie boy?

Lesson 10,001
Creation by BBob

Genesis 1



"1": In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

"2": And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

"3": And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

"4": And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

"5": And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


And time began.

????????????????

you still don't get it?


Let me ask again...is God in time...or out?

 

[Brother Bob]

Again, He inserts Himself in time as He chooses. God can and does do anything He wants. Now, you said the creation was time, then you say as the earth turns it is time so there had to be a creation before time began now according to your above post. The Scripture I posted is the Scripture, take it or leave it.
This shell game ain't bad at all for an old country boy. We have to do this again some time Jamie boy. I learned about having a intimate s.... relationship with God. I learned God did not create the earth and some other things. No bomb though which kinda left me disappointed. Have a good nite Jauthor001,

 

[GordonSlocum]

20. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but (He) has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Here Peter clearly explains how foreknowledge should be understood.

Jesus was foreknown by God the Father
What was it that God foreknew about His Son?
He foreknew that Christ would appear and die for our sins (“for the sake of you”).

In the same way God foreknow that we will either trust in Him or not trust. On this basis we are elect / chosen from all eternity.

 

[reformedbeliever]

20. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but (He) has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Here Peter clearly explains how foreknowledge should be understood.

Jesus was foreknown by God the Father
What was it that God foreknew about His Son?
He foreknew that Christ would appear and die for our sins (“for the sake of you”).

In the same way God foreknow that we will either trust in Him or not trust. On this basis we are elect / chosen from all eternity.

Here it is again. Someone who thinks God has to see what man would do in order to know whether to elect him or not. Gordon.... God is all knowing.... He does not have to learn anything from man.... He does not have to see what man would do (learn) in order to know who to elect. God is all knowing.

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree He is all knowing. Who will believe and who will not.
Question;
When is foundation of the World?

 

[reformedbeliever]

I agree He is all knowing. Who will believe and who will not.
Question;
When is foundation of the World?

When is the foundation of a building? When is the foundation of anything? It is the beginning.

 

[Brother Bob]

world is sinners so when is foundation of the world?

Can you find the word "world" in Gen:?

 

[reformedbeliever]

world is sinners so when is foundation of the world?

Have you lost your mind?

 

[Brother Bob]

Can you find the word "world" in Genesis?

According to scriptures there is the World and there is the Church.

Its a good question.

Jesus said "I have chosen you out of the world" and they were still on the earth.

 

[Blammo]

Let me ask again...is God in time...or out?

That, my friend, is a ridiculous question to say the least. You, sir, are trying to limit God to one or the other. I believe God can be both in time and outside of time at the same time. (And you say we limit God)

 

[GordonSlocum]

23. this {Man,} delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death.

There is a Plan.
What is in the Plan?
Is freedom to believe in the Plan?
If freedom to believe is in the plan then that freedom is predetermined and set.


Notice Jesus was delivered over by two things

(1) The completed, settled, or determined plan
(2)God's foreknowledge

"Commentary: Calvinist know this and secretly they really don't believe what they are trapped in. Pride in my estimation has them in chains . Calvinist are changed or infected with Tulipitis. Tulipitis can be CURED.

How is foreknowledge understood here. It is understood that there is something knowable in the plan. What are the facts in this verse that was known in eternity that took place in time. That godless men would be used to nail him to the cross. So foreknowledge knows all the details of the plan, the different variables of the plan, both actual and potential. But because God not only knew the potential but knew the actual then on the based of the actual he speaks, he orchestrates both lost and saved toward the goal of this plan, His plan. God is not surprised by what is in the plan.

You see the plan is predetermined, all that is in the plan is settled. What is settled? All willful acts, all decisions of all kinds, all actions and reactions and thinking - everything. He knows how He Himself orchestrates the free decisions to bring about His sovereignty. You see God’s sovereignty is in tack with the Free will position, but with the philosophical mombo-jombo of Calvinism. His sovereignty is destroyed. Calvinism tells God what He can and can not do. Bible Believing non Calvinist Let God be God. We don’t tell God what can be in his pan and what can not be in his plan.

So I have give you absolute proof that foreknowledge with respect to all the passages dealing with this debate are in no way related to any suggestion that it can be compared to similar parallels to a man knowing his wife sexually. This concept is utterly ridicules.

Calvinism is more than a shell -it is a mirage.

 

[jne1611]

world is sinners so when is foundation of the world?

Can you find the word "world" in Gen:?

http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb112_ZNxpt237YYUS&utm_id=7920

 

[reformedbeliever]

23. this {Man,} delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death.

There is a Plan.
What is in the Plan?
Is freedom to believe in the Plan?
If freedom to believe is in the plan then that freedom is predetermined and set.


Notice Jesus was delivered over by two things

(1) The completed, settled, or determined plan
(2)God foreknowledge

How is foreknowledge understood here. It is understood that there is something knowable in the plan. What are the facts in this verse that was known in eternity that took place in time. That godless men would be used to nail him to the cross. So foreknowledge knows all the details of the plan, the different variables of the plan, both actual and potential. But because God not only knew the potential but knew the actual then on the based of the actual he speaks, he orchestrates both lost and saved toward the goal of this plan, His plan. God is not supprised by what is in the plan.

You see the plan is predetermined, all that is in the plan is settled. What is settled? All willful acts, all decisions of all kinds, all actions and reactions and thinking - everything. He knows how He Himself orchestrates the free decisions to bring about His sovereignty. You see God’s sovereignty is in tack with the Free will position, but with the philosophical mombo-jombo of Calvinism. His sovereignty is destroyed. Calvinism tells God what He can and can not do. Bible Believing non Calvinist Let God be God. We don’t tell God what can be in his pan and what can not be in his plan.

So I have give you absolute proof that foreknowledge with respect to all the passages dealing with this debate are in no way related to any suggestion that it can be compared to similar parallels to a man knowing his wife sexually. This concept is utterly ridicules.

Calvinism is more than a shell -it is a mirage.

If it is all settled, where is the free will? God in His providence causes all things to work together for the good. Your *free* choices will always be consistent with God's decreed will.... therefore your choices are not really free in the literal sense. God knows the future. The future exists as God knows it. There are really therefore no variables in our choices as far as the future is concerned... we will always choose in a manner that is consistent with God's decreed will.

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
world is sinners so when is foundation of the world?

Can you find the word "world" in Gen:?

I not trying to make a big deal out of this but just find it interesting.
Jesus said I have chosen you out of the world and you are no longer of the world. The scriptures teach of a world and a church. It says that Jesus stood as a slain lamb before the foundation of the world. You can not find the word "world" in Genesis, so I was wondering if any had a thought on when the foundation of the world is?

I probably should of started a thread on this.

 

[l_PETE_l]

Bible Believing non Calvinist Let God be God. We don’t tell God what can be in his pan and what can not be in his plan.

you say God cannot choose some and leave others out.
you say God cannot sacrifice His Son for only the sins of the saved
you say God cannot guarantee His children will come to Him

We say God can and does what He will, and are happy to be one of His children

 

[Jarthur001]

That, my friend, is a ridiculous question to say the least. You, sir, are trying to limit God to one or the other. I believe God can be both in time and outside of time at the same time. (And you say we limit God)

Right..

And if you had read what I said, you would know that I say this very thing. Where as it was Bob that said God was out of time and I had to force him to say God could work in time. read the OP...thanks

 

[Jarthur001]

23. this {Man,} delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death.

There is a Plan.
What is in the Plan?
Is freedom to believe in the Plan?
If freedom to believe is in the plan then that freedom is predetermined and set.


Notice Jesus was delivered over by two things

(1) The completed, settled, or determined plan
(2)God's foreknowledge

"Commentary: Calvinist know this and secretly they really don't believe what they are trapped in. Pride in my estimation has them in chains . Calvinist are changed or infected with Tulipitis. Tulipitis can be CURED.

How is foreknowledge understood here. It is understood that there is something knowable in the plan. What are the facts in this verse that was known in eternity that took place in time. That godless men would be used to nail him to the cross. So foreknowledge knows all the details of the plan, the different variables of the plan, both actual and potential. But because God not only knew the potential but knew the actual then on the based of the actual he speaks, he orchestrates both lost and saved toward the goal of this plan, His plan. God is not surprised by what is in the plan.

You see the plan is predetermined, all that is in the plan is settled. What is settled? All willful acts, all decisions of all kinds, all actions and reactions and thinking - everything. He knows how He Himself orchestrates the free decisions to bring about His sovereignty. You see God’s sovereignty is in tack with the Free will position, but with the philosophical mombo-jombo of Calvinism. His sovereignty is destroyed. Calvinism tells God what He can and can not do. Bible Believing non Calvinist Let God be God. We don’t tell God what can be in his pan and what can not be in his plan.

So I have give you absolute proof that foreknowledge with respect to all the passages dealing with this debate are in no way related to any suggestion that it can be compared to similar parallels to a man knowing his wife sexually. This concept is utterly ridicules.

Calvinism is more than a shell -it is a mirage.

page 16...and still waiting from the freewillers on this...

If God foreknows (as used by freewillers) before God predestined, this is hyper-Calvinism other then God is not in control. In this view, what God sees will happen, God must make happen, or what He saw was not really the end of things. God is limited and controlled by what man does. If God changes things in this view God would be changing what He foreknow would happen. If God did this changing, why did He not know about the change? God must do as He saw “done” in the future, or God did not really see the end.