The Glorious "Gospel of Election"

[PK]

Hello PK,

Lets look at what you said above.


"All" takes on the meaning of the context, as all other words do. If I tell my family, "all of us is going out to eat"...this is not talking about the whole world. In fact, if others were standing there with my family, I could still say "all of us is going out to eat" and still not be talking about the others outside my family. All can mean many things.

Lets take the verse..."For God so loved the world..."

This has been used my many, to say it is saying God loves all of mankind. They see it no other way. They then change the meaning of other verses that shows clearly that God does hate when He chooses to do so. This is based on how they read John 3:16. Again we are talking about the word LOVE here. Can God love the world and not love each person?

We do this all the time as humans, so why can God not do it? Like I may say..."I love sports" and mean it. I may later say ..."I hate hunting". Hunting is a sport. Does this mean i lied? No...of course not.

I can say "I love food"...and also say "I hate green peas"...both are true statements.

Therefore it is easy to see that God can indeed say I love the world, and I hate some. There is no need to change the meaning of the Bible, for both is true.

You said..


I along with ALL calvinist believe this now. We call it the big T.

You said...


I believe this now as well as most Calvinist. You think because God is in control that we are robots...comes only from Calvinist haters and Hypers.

YOU said...


I witness now. I ask others to come to Christ nearly everyday. I write a colunm that goes into 100,000 homes...not a "church based newspaper"...just a hometown paper. I have to believe that most of my readers are not believers. I ask in most columns for readers to come to Christ. Name me a church that reaches 100,000 homes. They are few. It is not I, but God that gave me this column. I must do His work though it.

I also teach and witness to others outside of church. This I say not in pride, but for you to claim Calvinist do not witness is shameful. Do you not know the history of missions??? Was it not founded my Calvinist?

Look at Livingston, Carey, Edwards....did they not witness? Were they not Calvinist? You need to leave your hate at the door for brothers in Christ, and not think so highly of yourself as a better believer my friend.

Even John Calvin proved himself to be genuinely concerned for the spread of the true gospel as he should be. Under Calvin's leadership, Geneva became the hub of a vast missionary enterprise.

Calvin says...



You said...

That is a out right lie and you need to ask forgiveness for slamming brothers in Christ.

History will prove you wrong many times over. I waste no time on this, but tell you you have been mislead in many things.

Can God say "elect" and not mean all of the elect?

 

[PK]

The Bible says that Jesus died for all men.
1 John 2:1
Luke 19:10
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
Hebrews 2:9

His blood can wash away anyone's sin.
John 1:29
1 John 2:1-2

The gospel is for all men.
Mark 16:15-16
Romans 1:16

 

[Rippon]

The Bible says that Jesus died for all men.
1 John 2:1
Luke 19:10
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
Hebrews 2:9

His blood can wash away anyone's sin.
John 1:29
1 John 2:1-2

The gospel is for all men.
Mark 16:15-16
Romans 1:16

I'm glad you put the second proposition there , otherwise you'd be excluding the poor womenfolk !

 

[EdSutton]

Dear Brother Ed,
We are still in our grave clothes.
bro. Dallas:wavey:

Sorry, I find no Scripture that says this, as I already pointed out.

In our mortal bodies, in one sense, waiting? Yes.

Ed

 

[canadyjd]

Are you saved in spite of yourSELF and how you respond to God or because of yourself and how you responded to God?

I am saved in spite of myself and because God poured out His grace upon me. Nothing in me could have drawn me to God. Nothing in me desired the truth of God. Nothing in me brought me to a knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ. There is nothing in me that keeps me saved. It was/is all of God.

peace to youraying:

 

[Jarthur001]

The Bible says that Jesus died for all men.
1 John 2:1
Luke 19:10
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
Hebrews 2:9

His blood can wash away anyone's sin.
John 1:29
1 John 2:1-2

These verses have to do with Christ atonement. We can talk about that in another thread if you wish to start one.

The gospel is for all men.
Mark 16:15-16
Romans 1:16

All Calvinist would agree. This point will support Calvinism more then free-willism.

 

[Jarthur001]

Can God say "elect" and not mean all of the elect?

give me a verse that would make you ask this.

 

[skypair]

I am saved in spite of myself and because God poured out His grace upon me. Nothing in me could have drawn me to God. Nothing in me desired the truth of God. Nothing in me brought me to a knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ. There is nothing in me that keeps me saved. It was/is all of God.

He poured His grace out on EVERYONE (note PK's citations) with partiality to NONE. Maybe everyone else that does NOTHING is saved as well, eh?

Maybe NNE can "reach out and, perchance, feel Him though He not not far from ANY of us."

Like Adrian Rogers used to say, "If you can have something and not know it, you could lose it and not even miss it." He's talking about "election," jd. You didn't even know you were "elect" until --- what? Did you ever "miss it" all those years before you were saved? When you had it and didn't know it?

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

He poured His grace out on EVERYONE (note PK's citations) with partiality to NONE.

First of all, you stated earlier that you didn't recieve God's grace until YOU decided with your own "free-will" to come to Christ. Are you now saying that all men come to Christ? That must be what you are saying since you said God poured out His grace on all men, and that you can only recieve God's grace when YOU exercise your "free-will" to do so. Which is it, skypair? Are all men saved, and therefore recieve God's grace?

Secondly, Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice" "I call them by name" "they follow Me". To the pharisee he said "you do not believe because you are not My Sheep".

I exegeted those passages of scripture for you once, demonstrating the meaning from the Greek, and you said you couldn't argue with what it meant. And yet, you still refuse to accept what it means because it doesn't fit what you want to believe.

You didn't even know you were "elect" until --- what?

Until after I was saved and began to deligently study scripture. Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see the truth of God's Word. And what I learned from scripture was exactly consistent with what I had experienced before and during salvation. Salvation is completely a work of Almighty God, a gift of His grace. I understood "election" long before I ever heard the name "Calvin".

Did you ever "miss it" all those years before you were saved? When you had it and didn't know it?

You don't have to understand "election" to be saved. I appreciate the gift of God's grace, and His call to service, much better now that I understand God's purpose in "election".

peace to youraying:

 

[Brother Bob]

Secondly, Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice" "I call them by name" "they follow Me". To the pharisee he said "you do not believe because you are not My Sheep".

You are not "sheep" until you are "born again" and of course we hear His voice.

Until after I was saved and began to deligently study scripture. Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see the truth of God's Word. And what I learned from scripture was exactly consistent with what I had experienced before and during salvation. Salvation is completely a work of Almighty God, a gift of His grace. I understood "election" long before I ever heard the name "Calvin".
Quote:

Did you know you were "lost" before you found out you were the "elect"? If you knew you were "lost", did you try to do anything about it or just accept the fact you were going to hell??
BBob,

BBob,

 

[skypair]

First of all, you stated earlier that you didn't recieve God's grace until YOU decided with your own "free-will" to come to Christ. Are you now saying that all men come to Christ? That must be what you are saying since you said God poured out His grace on all men, and that you can only recieve God's grace when YOU exercise your "free-will" to do so. Which is it, skypair? Are all men saved, and therefore recieve God's grace?

Grace, to you, has the specific meaning of "salvation," is that correct? Not to me. Grace, to me, means "giving us what we don't deserve" -- UNMERITED favor. That overlaps with but does not exclusively mean "salvation."

Thus, the grace God gave for all of us is His Son. By Him, ALL will be resurrected to a new body. That's just another thing we don't deserve yet ALL will get -- a physical hearing in His physical, glorified presence.

Secondly, Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice" "I call them by name" "they follow Me". To the pharisee he said "you do not believe because you are not My Sheep".

And yet even they were not "frozen" into that destiny. Readwhere, shortly after they had rejected Him and He began to speak in parables, many Pharisees believed but would not speak out for fear of being thrown out of the synagogue. You seem to be presuming that there are no more sheep coming in during the various generations, jd -- like there is no "Gate" to come through. Like the "sheep" who are in there and hear never were anywhere else. Hmm.

Until after I was saved and began to deligently study scripture. Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see the truth of God's Word. And what I learned from scripture was exactly consistent with what I had experienced before and during salvation.

So "election" is synonymous with salvation? How about this --- "election" is the outworking of salvation so far as the believer's experience of salvation? Does that seem right? So far as you can know from experience, election is manifested through your salvation, not salvation through your election, right?

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

You are not "sheep" until you are "born again" and of course we hear His voice.

No Bob, the sheep hear His voice and THEN follow Him. We are born again by the will of Holy Spirit, not our own.

Did you know you were "lost" before you found out you were the "elect"? If you knew you were "lost", did you try to do anything about it or just accept the fact you were going to hell??

I knew I was lost when Holy Spirit convicted me of the truth of that fact. And prior to that, I thought I was a pretty good person, and therefore "saved";

I tried to treat everyone well, most of the time. I didn't cheat on my wife. I didn't steal...and so on. I had "prayed the prayer" many times, and had been "baptized" by Pentecostals, Baptists, Church of Christ, Church of God and probably others that I don't remember.

I can remember telling someone that I believed God was a righteous judge and would weigh the good with the bad, and I would make it to heaven based on how good I had been. I thought I was doing what needed to be done.

Like I said, I discovered the truth of "election" after I was saved and begin to read scripture deligently.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Grace, to you, has the specific meaning of "salvation," is that correct?

NO. Grace means unmerited favor. In scripture, it is used to refer to salvific grace toward an unbeliever and also enabling grace toward a believer.

Not to me. Grace, to me, means "giving us what we don't deserve" -- UNMERITED favor. That overlaps with but does not exclusively mean "salvation."

Tell me this, skypair. If you believe "foreknowledge" means that God looked into the future and saw who would believe, and then, based on that information "elected" them to salvation, how can that be said to be "unmerited favor"?

If God is responding to something men do in His "election" to salvation, then that must mean they merited His favor. God "chose" based on what they did, and God did not chose others because they did not do what the first group had done. Is that right?

How can that be "unmerited favor"?

peace to youraying:

 

[Brother Bob]

No Bob, the sheep hear His voice and THEN follow Him. We are born again by the will of Holy Spirit, not our own.I knew I was lost when Holy Spirit convicted me of the truth of that fact. And prior to that, I thought I was a pretty good person, and therefore "saved";

I tried to treat everyone well, most of the time. I didn't cheat on my wife. I didn't steal...and so on. I had "prayed the prayer" many times, and had been "baptized" by Pentecostals, Baptists, Church of Christ, Church of God and probably others that I don't remember.

I can remember telling someone that I believed God was a righteous judge and would weight the good with the bad, and I would make it to heaven based on how good I had been. I thought I was doing what needed to be done.

Like I said, I discovered the truth of "election" after I was saved and begin to read scripture deligently.

peace to youraying:

I knew I was lost and that hell would be my home if I never repented. Does that mean that I am misinformed about my salvation??

Its hard to believe that murderers are his sheep, while they are still murderers. That would mean Paul was His sheep, while consenting to Stevens death and having Christians killed. Don't think I ever read where the sheep were following the Devil and doing the devil's will.

What if I believe that God does not have to look into the future to see what we will do, but that God looks and sees all at once. The same time He is enrolling our name in the Lamb's Book of Life, He also sees us believe or disbelieve.

BBob,

 

[jne1611]

I would agree -- but according to His promises. Yes, He appoints whom He will by the working of His covenants and laws. Have you not also heard "you get the President you deserve?" That means it is also in the hands of MEN who gets "appointed."

The Jews are in "unbelief" now. What kind of ruler do they deserve? What kind of rulers have they gotten? Mainly you are not connecting "cause" with "effect" when you talk about God's "appoointments."

skypair

I see your point and agree. The reason I did not go into the fact of the reason for the appointment was that I was focusing mainly on the fact that they were appointed of God. But, I am not going further with this because it steered in another direction than intended.

 

[canadyjd]

I knew I was lost and that hell would be my home if I never repented. Does that mean that I am misinformed about my salvation??

I knew those things too, but not until Holy Spirit convicted me of the truth of my condition before God.

Its hard to believe that murderers are his sheep, while they are still murderers. That would mean Paul was His sheep, while consenting to Stevens death and having Christians killed.

Was Paul a murderer on the road to Damascus? He was on his way to do just that, wasn't he? Did Paul do something to "clean himself up" from all that murdering he had done, prior to our Lord appearing to him? I don't see it in scripture. Paul understood God's grace as well, or better, than anyone. He had persecuted Christ, Himself, in persecuting His church. That knowledge stayed with him, and humbled him, and motivated him to service.

Doesn't Paul tell us, years later, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost." (I Tim.1:15) Notice the present tense verb, "I am foremost". Not, "I was foremost".

What if I believe that God does not have to look into the future to see what we will do, but that God looks and sees all at once. The same time He is enrolling our name in the Lamb's Book of Life, He also sees us believe or disbelieve.

It doesn't change anything, Bob, if you believe God based His decision to "elect" people to salvation based on something they did/will do.

If God is responding to something man is doing/going to do, in the granting of Grace, and others do not recieve grace because they did not do the thing the first group did, then that cannot rightly be called "unmerited favor".

Can you explain how such a thing can be called "unmerited favor"?

They "merit" God's grace based on what they did. And, therefore, "grace" cannot rightly be called "grace" (unmerited favor). We must find a new definition for grace. Perhaps "merited mercy" would be more appropriate?

peace to youraying:

 

[Brother Bob]

I knew those things too, but not until Holy Spirit convicted me of the truth of my condition before God.Was Paul a murderer on the road to Damascus? He was on his way to do just that, wasn't he? Did Paul do something to "clean himself up" from all that murdering he had done, prior to our Lord appearing to him? I don't see it in scripture. Paul understood God's grace as well, or better, than anyone. He had persecuted Christ, Himself, in persecuting His church. That knowledge stayed with him, and humbled him, and motivated him to service.

Doesn't Paul tell us, years later, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost." (I Tim.1:15) Notice the present tense verb, "I am foremost". Not, "I was foremost". It doesn't change anything, Bob, if you believe God based His decision to "elect" people to salvation based on something they did/will do.

If God is responding to something man is doing/going to do, in the granting of Grace, and others do not recieve grace because they did not do the thing the first group did, then that cannot rightly be called "unmerited favor".

Can you explain how such a thing can be called "unmerited favor"?

They "merit" God's grace based on what they did. And, therefore, "grace" cannot rightly be called "grace" (unmerited favor). We must find a new definition for grace. Perhaps "merited mercy" would be more appropriate?

peace to youraying:

Titus 2:
1: But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3: The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4: That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5: To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
6: Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7: In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8: Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
9: Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
10: Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Grace is not the problem. It is the lack of "faith" and the "love of God" that is the problem.IMO

1Cr 13:2And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here we see a man could have the "Grace" and could have "all faith", but if he does not have the "Love God", he is nothing.

 

[Brother Bob]

canadyjd;
May I ask you a question.
Why were the commandments given?

Were not the "elect" already pre-programmed to keep all the Commandments, at a certain time?

BBob,

 

[Jarthur001]

canadyjd;
May I ask you a question.
Why were the commandments given?

Were not the "elect" already pre-programmed to keep all the Commandments, at a certain time?

BBob,

WHAT? Not sure what you are talking about. I know this is to someone else, but I need to ask something.

Please give me a verse that shows people are pre-programmed for anything.

 

[Brother Bob]

WHAT? Not sure what you are talking about. I know this is to someone else, but I need to ask something.

Please give me a verse that shows people are pre-programmed for anything.

Well, I need you to answer me a question first.

Can the "elect" be lost and go to hell, if not why?

Do the "elect" live a Christian life. Who is their leader God or Satan?

Hbr 10:39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Mar 10:17¶And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Mar 10:19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Seem Jesus thought that those who are saved do the above. I suspect, you believe the elect are saved.

Your words James:

Election is the fact of God chosing/electing to Himself a people whereby we as a people had no say in the matter as to the method (faith) and the means (gospel) of salvation. Therefore man contributed nothing to his election nor did God seek mans input. He determined salvation was to be through faith that it might be by grace and all those of faith (future) were known to Him (at that time). And that it was done from the foundation of the world for His own purpose, plan, and good pleasure.

James;
SO..I could agree with this statement. It is not worded the way I would word it. But it says nothing wrong. I would say it in a stronger way. But it says nothing about foreknowing is the base of election...which is what parts the two sides

BBob,