The Glorious "Gospel of Election"

[Brother Bob]

Dear Brother Bob,
I believe Amy already answered the general revelation question.

Is this a good place to state the topic of this thread is not related to Absolute Predestination. I have noticed alot of people on both sides of the questions here believe the election of God's children means there is an election unto condemnation.

That is not the case. The fact that a person sins does not mean God has decreed that act.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

I agree, God does not will sin either. What again is the general revelation? I don't remember Amy answering it, but canadajd did.

BBob,

 

[Amy.G]

Rom 13:2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

If God's will were always done, there would be no sin. Surely you don't believe it was God's will for that daughter and boyfriend kill her entire family, do you?

Romans 13:2 is talking about obeying the laws of government. I'm not sure what that has to do with the other verses we were discussing.

I don't know why God allows sin, but that doesn't mean that God's will can be resisted. If God wills something to happen, then it will happen.

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans 13:2 is talking about obeying the laws of government. I'm not sure what that has to do with the other verses we were discussing.

I don't know why God allows sin, but that doesn't mean that God's will can be resisted. If God wills something to happen, then it will happen.

It is God's will that we pray in faith. Not doing it is against God's will.


If God's decrees something it will happen. You think it was God will that He saw men's hearts were evil and said I will destroy them? I think it is God's will that all men be saved. I think it is God's will that none of us murder, commit adultery, pedophiler, rapist, lie etc.

Amy;
It is talking about the power of God. IMO

Romans 3:1-2
1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

BBob,

 

[Amy.G]

Amy; are you saying that a preacher preaches the laws of the government?

BBob,

No. I must have missed something. :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

No, you posted before I got a chance to fix it. But the power is higher than a preacher, it God Himself.

 

[Amy.G]

No, you posted before I got a chance to fix it. But the power is higher than a preacher, it God Himself.

Romans 13:1-2 is about obeying the "powers" of government rulers because they were ordained of God. So to disobey them is to disobey God.



Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Rom 13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.


Time for :sleeping_2:

Nite all.

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans 13:1-2 is about obeying the "powers" of government rulers because they were ordained of God. So to disobey them is to disobey God.



Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Rom 13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

Preachers are instruments, servants of God and the people. It is God who has the power.

He is talking about the church. You do not believe that God put Saddam in as head of State do you. I will tell you right off, that I do not believe God is the one who puts people in government in their positions at all. When Jesus told the King you have not power, except my Father give it to you, He meant "power over Him".

BBob,

 

[webdog]

Paul is quoting from Psalm 19, "the heavens are declaring the glory of God...."

He is refering to the general revelation that has gone out to the ends of the earth, but did not save. Now comes the specific revelation of Christ that must, too, go out to the ends of the earth, but has not yet reached that goal. Thus the need for a preacher to preach the gospel.

peace to youraying:

What you refer to as general revelation, I believe is really the Gospel in the stars. It's a fascinating study.

 

[webdog]

If God will have all men to be saved, why aren't all men saved? Why isn't God's will done to save all men?

If it's God's will to save all men, why aren't they, since Paul says "who resists His will"? (Romans 9:19)

Again, which will? His decretive, declarative or permissive?

 

[jne1611]

Preachers are instruments, servants of God and the people. It is God who has the power.

He is talking about the church. You do not believe that God put Saddam in as head of State do you. I will tell you right off, that I do not believe God is the one who puts people in government in their positions at all. When Jesus told the King you have not power, except my Father give it to you, He meant "power over Him".

BBob,

Hello Bro. Bob,
Not to be argumentative, but take a look at these Scriptures, especially the bold words and tell me what you think of them.
Dan 5:18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Dan 5:19 And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down.
Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
Dan 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

Bro. Bob, if I am reading that right, although Nebuchadnezzar was a wicked man, the same man who thrust the three Hebrews into the fiery furnace, God appointed him to that office.

And Pharaoh as well.
Exo 9:15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.
Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Pharaoh persecuted God's people, yet God raised him to the position as the king of Egypt.

I said all of that to say this. Just because God expresses hatred for a thing as sin, or a person, does not mean that it is not His will for that thing to be. For if God permits a thing to be, it has to be in His will for it to be, to be sure, for reasons known only to Himself, but, still, it must be His will, for without His permission, it could have never been, and seeing He knows & declares the end from the beginning, then, if He knows something is going to be sinful, and allows it to come into being anyway, He must Will it's existence in some respect. And He even expressed in the case of Pharaoh, that it was for the purpose of his glory that he raised him up. Do you see what I mean?

 

[Frogman]

general revelation

General Revelation as I understand it is not speaking of the study of the gospel written in the stars, nor in any part of creation.

The gospel speaks of the grace of God, these 'revelations' do not. The Bible tells us the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared unto all men.

This grace is speaking of God's so loving the world that he gave his only begotten son.

This is general revelation as I understand it to mean when it is being considered.

Amy stated something to this effect in answer to your question. The general revelation of the Grace of God through Christ, if not believed brings condemnation. I think by what I understand to be general revelation, her answer is correct.

This does not mean I agree with that particular teaching.:smilewinkgrin:

But what I have written is what I understood relating to the teaching gen,. revelation when it was explained to me.

bro. Dallas:wavey: :wavey:

 

[Brother Bob]

Hello Bro. Bob,
Not to be argumentative, but take a look at these Scriptures, especially the bold words and tell me what you think of them.
Dan 5:18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
Dan 5:19 And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down.
Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
Dan 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

Bro. Bob, if I am reading that right, although Nebuchadnezzar was a wicked man, the same man who thrust the three Hebrews into the fiery furnace, God appointed him to that office.

And Pharaoh as well.
Exo 9:15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.
Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Pharaoh persecuted God's people, yet God raised him to the position as the king of Egypt.

I said all of that to say this. Just because God expresses hatred for a thing as sin, or a person, does not mean that it is not His will for that thing to be. For if God permits a thing to be, it has to be in His will for it to be, to be sure, for reasons known only to Himself, but, still, it must be His will, for without His permission, it could have never been, and seeing He knows & declares the end from the beginning, then, if He knows something is going to be sinful, and allows it to come into being anyway, He must Will it's existence in some respect. And He even expressed in the case of Pharaoh, that it was for the purpose of his glory that he raised him up. Do you see what I mean?

So, in the bold print, was this not for a cause that God wanted to happen the first to prove that God ruled and second that His name would be declared throughout the earth. Were not both of these so that a purpose of God would happen??
Doe you apply this same application to all that are in government? Such as Larry Craig for starters, there are much worse than he is. Take Hitler for instance, Stalin or Bush. Did God raise up Saddam and then raise up Bush to kill him? I thought God said, I have chosen you out of the world, and you are no longer of the world. Also, the world will love its own, but they will hate you?? Not being quarrellsome and please don't take it that way. I just would like to understand what you believe about all this.

So, you say that God willeth sin?? Sounds as if you also are among those who believe that God sent 9/11 upon us? Do you believe that God put Hitler in power to slay all the Jews also?
I know that God caused Israel to be overthrown for disobeidance and used people like Nebuchadnezzar to do so for His own purpose. I have several politicians around me and throughout this country who have a "wide stance" that are of the devil. Do you believe God put them in power also? Most of all, are Christians supposed to honor such people, if you think it is "ordained" of God?

I really like the way you all always run to the OT when its talking of Israel as a nation and use that to judge us today. (not) Many of you even use David's adultereous life to try and make an escape for Christians of today. Have you not read where the first was done away with to make room for the second?

 

[Brother Bob]

General Revelation as I understand it is not speaking of the study of the gospel written in the stars, nor in any part of creation.
But you say it has reached "all" men. Please tell me how and what does it condemn men of?

The gospel speaks of the grace of God, these 'revelations' do not. The Bible tells us the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared unto all men.
agree

This grace is speaking of God's so loving the world that he gave his only begotten son.
agree

This is general revelation as I understand it to mean when it is being considered.

Amy stated something to this effect in answer to your question. The general revelation of the Grace of God through Christ, if not believed brings condemnation. I think by what I understand to be general revelation, her answer is correct.
But Amy says this has not reached "all" men, scripture says it has. What say you?

This does not mean I agree with that particular teaching.:smilewinkgrin:

But what I have written is what I understood relating to the teaching gen,. revelation when it was explained to me.

bro. Dallas:wavey: :wavey:

I know what the general revelation of the Grace of God is, but I think you all have stated that has not reached all mankind as of yet, if I am understanding you.

What interests me is this general revelation that brings "condemnation", but you say does not bring the Grace of God. I am asking what does it condemn all men of. What kind of condemnation does it bring upon all men? Can you tell me, or anyone tell me. So far all I have heard is that it is sent upon "all" men, so as to get around the "real thing" having reached all men. But you say this "general revelation" which brings condemnation has reached all men. I would like to know how this condemnation has reached all men and what is that condemnation, If anyone can answer.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

I believe all have rejected God's revelation, based on Romans 1. That is the truth that is rejected and which condemns.

Please! Condemns of what?

I don't believe all have heard and rejected the gospel of Christ, though those who do will have that fact presented as "exhibit A" in their judgment.

(edit) Looks like AmyG beat me to it.:thumbs:

1. So, you and Amy believe that God's revelation has reached all men?

2. You and Amy believe that the gospel has not reached all men?

I know what #2 is, can you, Frog, or Amy or Dale tell me what #1 is?

If I am misquoting any of you please tell me, I do not want to offend anyone. I would just like to have some scriptural answers.

peace to youraying:

The "Truth" is Jesus and you say you believe that all have rejected God's revelation. What revelation? What was revealed unto "all men". The "truth" that is rejected and which condemns. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life", is this what has reached "all men". Is there another "truth"?

How did this "truth" reach "all" men? I think this is very important. We can't just say we believe something without some scriptural support.

It seems to me that you "all" do not want to say that Romans 1 means the Gospel has reached "all" men, so you are saying this "general revelation" is what has reached all men. Also, this "general revelation condemns all men", well condemns them of what? Please I do not mean to sound mean spirited and I ask you don't take it that way.
BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Is this what all of you mean by general revelation? If so, then who came up with it??? Also, is this not what man had the first 2000 years before the Law Covenant?? Were they all lost?

General revelation is a theological term which refers to a universal aspect of God, of God's knowledge and of spiritual matters, discovered through natural means, such as observation of nature (the physical universe), philosophy and reasoning, human conscience or providence or providential history. Theologians use the term to describe knowledge of God which is plainly available to all mankind. These aspects of general revelation pertain to outward temporal events that are experienced within the world or this physical universe.
Within this type of revelation, it is believed that God does not use specific words, or specific actions, but more general or encompassing events that occur in creation, conscience, and history1. This belief in general revelation claims to have its support from the scriptures of Romans 1:20, Psalms 19:1-6, and Matthew 5:45. The idea is that general revelation is to show the works and existence of God in indirect ways.
In more detail, General Revelation says:

1. Physical Universe - God uses the laws and nature of this physical universe to create or influence events to display God's existence, power, order, rightness, wisdom, knowledge, greatness, supremacy and goodness.
2. Human Conscience - God has instilled the innate ability in all persons to discern the differences between right and wrong, to choose and act on these discernments and judgments according to free will and conscience, and to experience guilt when the act or choice is wrong. This aspect of General Revelation implies that God exists, but that depends on the willingness and openness of the person to recognize such an inference.
3. Providence - refers to things affected by the providence of God. The word providence is to mean, "divine providence; proceeding from divine direction or superintendence; as the providential contrivance of things; as a providential escape from danger."2

It is contended by some that General Revelation is insufficient to impart salvation, or any understanding or knowledge of salvation or the specific role of Jesus Christ. General Revelation is more to the experience of life by a person, and is solely dependent on the ability of the person(s) to clearly comprehend any part of God's hand in external events or things.
General revelation is in contrast with special revelation and direct revelation, the former refers to the knowledge of God and spiritual matters which can be discovered through supernatural means, such as scripture or miracles, and the latter refers to a direct communication from God to a person

 

[Brother Bob]

If God will have all men to be saved, why aren't all men saved? Why isn't God's will done to save all men?

If it's God's will to save all men, why aren't they, since Paul says "who resists His will"? (Romans 9:19)

I think you should of read the whole verse at least Amy.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God was "not willing that any should perish", then he must of been "willing" that all be saved. IMO

I don't think God created Adam and "willed" him to sin, and then killed him.

I read somewhere that the Calvinist were surging, what do you think?

BBob,

 

[Bro. James]

Discerning the right from the wrong

That is the crux of the problem. Our consciences are seared by our depravity. We are enslaved to making the wrong choices. Salvation is of the Lord. That is why without God giving us the faith to believe, we cannot be saved. See Eph. 2:8.

The scriptures plainly teach that God is sovereign. His ways are not our ways. God has chosen to save some--for His glory and purpose. He could have destroyed the entire creation at the Flood--Noah found grace. God has a remnant.

God could have stopped the serpent, Eve, Adam, Cain, etal, etal. His permissive will allowed His creation to go to this day. He could melt it all with fervent heat whenever He wills; and He will.

We do not understand OMNI-power, presence or knowledge.

God has a remnant, saved from before the world was made, by the Lamb, slain before Adam sinned.

That is Grace--we should go to the Pit--God wrote our names in the Book of Life before the world was created.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Brother Bob]

That is the crux of the problem. Our consciences are seared by our depravity. We are enslaved to making the wrong choices. Salvation is of the Lord. That is why without God giving us the faith to believe, we cannot be saved. See Eph. 2:8.

The scriptures plainly teach that God is sovereign. His ways are not our ways. God has chosen to save some--for His glory and purpose. He could have destroyed the entire creation at the Flood--Noah found grace. God has a remnant.

God could have stopped the serpent, Eve, Adam, Cain, etal, etal. His permissive will allowed His creation to go to this day. He could melt it all with fervent heat whenever He wills; and He will.

We do not understand OMNI-power, presence or knowledge.

God has a remnant, saved from before the world was made, by the Lamb, slain before Adam sinned.

That is Grace--we should go to the Pit--God wrote our names in the Book of Life before the world was created.

Selah,

Bro. James

Well, as you say, God is Omnipresence and therefore is present, past and future all at once. What is fore to Him, when He see all at once. He does not look down through time, He looks at all at once. Predestination is for men, not God. He knows all. He saw you believe or disbelieve the same time as your name was wrote in the Lamb's Book of Life, if it was, and mine also.

BBob,

 

[Bro. James]

I have decided...

Making a decision for Christ waters down the doctrine of Grace. If there is something good we can do(make a right decision), then we can say we did our part, now God should do His part. This contradicts the meaning of Grace: unmerited favor. We deserve hell, God gave us heaven. That is Grace. We cannot make the right decision without God turning us around. See the conversion of Saul of Tarsus.

Shalom,

Bro. James

 

[Brother Bob]

Making a decision for Christ waters down the doctrine of Grace. If there is something good we can do(make a right decision), then we can say we did our part, now God should do His part. This contradicts the meaning of Grace: unmerited favor. We deserve hell, God gave us heaven. That is Grace. We cannot make the right decision without God turning us around. See the conversion of Saul of Tarsus.

Shalom,

Bro. James

Can God see your death now, or does He have to wait until you die?

BBob,