The Glorious "Gospel of Election"

[Brother Bob]

Instead of trying to change the subject, why not answer my question directly?

Do you believe that God "elects" based on "foreknowledge" and that "foreknowledge" means God sees who will believe and not believe and grants "grace" to those who believe. (That is your definition, is it not?)
Grants Salvation by "Grace".
Why did you not just give a scripture, makes it much easier for me to know exactly what you are saying. I don't like answering someone's question out of their head knowledge.

If you hold to that definition of "foreknowledge" then you cannot define "grace" as "unmerited favor", since clearly you believe God based His decision to show mercy and grant grace based on something the person does. If God responds to the person (what they do), then they have earned something. That means the person "merited" God's mercy, while others did not.

You make it individual when God makes it to "all" who believe. In His sovereignity, he made man to be able to believe or not believe. In His sovereignity, those who believe he predestinates to salvation, those who disbelieve, he casts down in the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his angels.

You must change the definition of "grace" to fit your understanding of "foreknowledge", don't you?

You must change the word of "all, whosoever, everyone, all men, etc to fit your theology don't you? No, I do not change the definition of Grace, for it hath appeared unto all men and can bring knowledge without salvation, love without salvation, the sun without salvation, your breath without salvation, you name it without salvation and also Salvation to the believers.
I would say, you consider yourself a "believer" don't you?

peace to youraying:

BBob, raying:

 

[Brother Bob]

My bride :love2: might say the same thing about me. :laugh:

That really makes her a :saint:, you know.

Ed

To put up with you, I will have to agree Ed.......:laugh:

BBob,

 

[skypair]

Tell me this, skypair. If you believe "foreknowledge" means that God looked into the future and saw who would believe, and then, based on that information "elected" them to salvation, how can that be said to be "unmerited favor"?

Because I didn't work for it. I didn't live the sinless life ... I didn't die on the cross ... I wouldn't have gone to that church where I was saved if not for my mom. There was only one thing in me that God would accept -- my trusting in Him, belief (Rom 4:5).

But the main thing is that I nor anyone was elected to salvation. Just as when it is said that Israel was elected, it was not to salvation but to God's purpose. Likewise, we church are elected to make Israel jealous that they might come back to God. They know that, though God has preserved them all these years, that He has not had a relationship with them spiritually.

If God is responding to something men do in His "election" to salvation, then that must mean they merited His favor. God "chose" based on what they did, and God did not chose others because they did not do what the first group had done. Is that right?

God will always reward obedience. In fact, God makes promises that are "attached" to obeying Him -- as in the promise of eternal life. The commands come from God -- the promises come from our choosing to obey God. In salvation, that's called "entering into covenant relationship." He has promised to save you and you have promised, much like in marriage or adoption, to trust Him.

I know that you alone did not decide that that woman you are married to would be your wife, did you. She has pretty much the same choice to make as you did, right? Did y'all plan the honeymoon together before there was even a proposal of marriage "on the table?"

I doubt it. Here's why --- the honeymoon, your life togther, etc. is what you "elect" each other to. But it is the choice of one another that gets you into talking and planning those other things called you "election" by God.

You have always objected to the marriage analogy, But the Bible says that the man is the "savior of [his wife's] body." And in that analogy, doesn't the woman have a choice to make regarding their future relationship too?

skypair

 

[skypair]

No Bob, the sheep hear His voice and THEN follow Him. We are born again by the will of Holy Spirit, not our own.

I have to agree with Bob, jd --- the parable begins with the gate reference to coming in by the gate and those who climb up any other way are thieves. So once we get in through the gate, then we are His sheep. THEN we follow Him hearing His voice.

I would ask you to reconsider from your experiences whether it was YOU that was convicted and whether it was YOU that changed your mind. I'm not saying that changing your mind saved you -- simply asking what was your feeling like that you think now that the Spirit and not you made the decision? Cause you KNOW a decision is required at some point, right?

As to "unmerited favor" --- I bring everything I have to the relationship though I know it is nothing. God brings everything He has and it IS everything that He knows I need.

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

Because I didn't work for it. I didn't live the sinless life ... I didn't die on the cross ... I wouldn't have gone to that church where I was saved if not for my mom. There was only one thing in me that God would accept -- my trusting in Him, belief (Rom 4:5)......God will always reward obedience.

So God "rewarded" your obedience and pour out His Grace on you and made you "elect"? I think I understand, and just disagree.

But the Bible says that the man is the "savior of [his wife's] body." And in that analogy, doesn't the woman have a choice to make regarding their future relationship too?

I guess you'll have to show me where scripture says the man is the "savior" of his wife's body.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Bob and skypair:

You both continue to ignore my basic question. I'll try one more time, and then I'll give up.

If God responds to what people do in the granting of "election unto salvation", how can that be considered "unmerited favor" or Grace?

Bob, I know you said something about it being a general, instead of a specific, election. That still doesn't address the question, because God is still responding to what the people do.

How can that rightly be called "unmerited favor" when they are made "elect" based on what they do, and others are not "elect" because they didn't "do" what the first group did?

Don't they earn their standing before God based on what they do?

peace to youraying:

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob and skypair:

You both continue to ignore my basic question. I'll try one more time, and then I'll give up.

If God responds to what people do in the granting of "election unto salvation", how can that be considered "unmerited favor" or Grace?

Bob, I know you said something about it being a general, instead of a specific, election. That still doesn't address the question, because God is still responding to what the people do.

How can that rightly be called "unmerited favor" when they are made "elect" based on what they do, and others are not "elect" because they didn't "do" what the first group did?

Don't they earn their standing before God based on what they do?

peace to youraying:

Before the foundation of the world?

Did Adam have a choice and when did God remake man?

It was Adam that brought death, How could that be a Sovereign God, in your definition of Sovereign??

I do not believe it takes away form God Sovereignity to believe on not to believe when God in His Sovereignity made man subject to vanity but not willing. "that means God made man to choose good or evil", and remained sovereign. Why does scripture say to cease to do evil and learn to do good, if you are elected to do that, why tell us to do it. Its going to happen anyway if we are elected to do it before the foundation of the world.

You still have not given me a scripture on the unmerited Grace, when the Grace of God hath appeared unto all men.

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and departing from evil is understanding. In other words a man must depart from His evil ways to have the understanding of God.

If salvation is "free" to those who believe, believing does not bring salvation, it is "free". We could believe all we want and not have salvation but God in His sovereignity freely gives salvation to those who believe. In other words you say He freely gives it to the "elect". What is the difference if He freely gives salvation to those who believe. The world is full of those who believe and those who do not, even if there was not Salvation, but God in His Sovereignity chose to give salvation to those who believe. Because they believe, God don't have to give them anything, but He does, as you say He gives it to the "elect".

You say and believe if I am not wrong, that God changes the heart of the "elect". They are the "elect" first is why God changes their heart, and does not lose His sovereignity. Why is it different to change the heart of a believer, to a heart of flesh, instead of stone, if the world is full of believers and unbelievers?

BBob,

 

[skypair]

So God "rewarded" your obedience and pour out His Grace on you and made you "elect"? I think I understand, and just disagree.

Guess we have to break out our Bibles then, eh? Heb 11, the great "faith" chapter, verse 6 --- "for he that cometh to God must believe that He IS and that He is a REWARDER of them who diligently SEEK Him." Do you believe this or just pay "lip service" to it? Three "free will" concepts are found in just this one half of the verse and then illustrated in the next 20: 1) we can SEEK Him, 2) we must BELIEVE on Him, and 3) He REWARDS seeking and belief.

I guess you'll have to show me where scripture says the man is the "savior" of his wife's body.

Eph 5:23 -- and the meaning, as I understand it --- is that a woman couldn't work so, if she lost her husband (divorce or death), she would be destitute even of her basic needs (much like we would be without Christ).

skypair

 

[canadyjd]

Like I said, I give up trying to communicate with you two.

peace to youraying:

 

[skypair]

If God responds to what people do in the granting of "election unto salvation", how can that be considered "unmerited favor" or Grace?

Because in sanctifying us (giving us the Holy Spirit), God doesn't look at us and our works. He looks at Christ and His work. Realize -- if I've got this right -- that justification is of BELIEVERS. There HAS to be some standard for whom God will save in eternity.

But this "grace" thing came along with the NT. God doesn't look at man in granting grace/His Spirit. This is why no OT saint was indwelt by Him but instead, He dwelt in their temple/tabernacles then. God looks at us through Jesus -- not our work but His -- in granting grace.

Now obviously there is a word for grace in the OT (41 mentions) but none with this meaning of it that applies to the "age" or "dispensation of grace."

How can that rightly be called "unmerited favor" when they are made "elect" based on what they do, and others are not "elect" because they didn't "do" what the first group did?

Obviously the word "elect" can refer to at least 2 different peoples: 1) Jews and 2) true church. Jews are still considered "elect" by Paul though they don't believe on Christ, right? Their "election" is to other purposes than salvation of the entirety of their race.

The kingdom of heaven parables show this very vividly! On earth, there are believers and "hangers on" religiously. One of the best illustrations is the parable of the 10 virgins. All were prospective "brides" but only 5 were truly believers. Yet they were all "elect" according to the kingdom.

Look at the laborers -- 6 groups "elected" throughout the day (Mt 20) yet the last were brought in and paid first. Why? All were "elect" unto the purpose of work but the last -- the church -- had been elect to a different purpose/destiny for awhile.

skypair

Don't they earn their standing before God based on what they do?

peace to youraying:[/QUOTE]

 

[KSeeker]

Here's my 2 cents...probably unwanted
1. If election is indeed referring to the salvation of man's spirit, then God elected some to be condemned for eternity-to not come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. This cannot be the case. What did God send Jesus for? To take away the sins of the world, right? To be the Savior of all man, correct? Your ideas of election thwart the will of God. Scripture says that the word of God does not return void and that it will accomplish everything that it is sent to do. Who is the word? John tells us that the Word is Christ. What was Christ sent to do again?
So you see, if election is applied to the salvation of man's spirit, then scripture in the previous instance cannot be fulfilled.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Here's my 2 cents...probably unwanted
1. If election is indeed referring to the salvation of man's spirit, then God elected some to be condemned for eternity-to not come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
2. This cannot be the case. What did God send Jesus for? To take away the sins of the world, right? To be the Savior of all man, correct? Your ideas of election thwart the will of God. Scripture says that the word of God does not return void and that it will accomplish everything that it is sent to do. Who is the word? John tells us that the Word is Christ. What was Christ sent to do again?
So you see, if election is applied to the salvation of man's spirit, then scripture in the previous instance cannot be fulfilled.

Actually you do not make sense. What do you think election means? Whether you believe election is God's sovereign choice of sinners to receive His sovereign grace, or election is due to God's ability to see into the future and know who will believe... and then elect those, there are still people who God knows will never believe. They could not have a chance to be saved if God knows they never will believe.
What part of election do you not believe? Shall we remove those sections from the Bible?

 

[KSeeker]

I'm not saying that I don't believe in election. I'm saying that I don't believe that it has been accurately interpreted in this thread.
All I'm trying to do is to get you guys to think outside of the box. Be open-minded!!!
I'm opting out early because I know I will be argued even if I present valid scripture to prove myself.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I'm not saying that I don't believe in election. I'm saying that I don't believe that it has been accurately interpreted in this thread.
All I'm trying to do is to get you guys to think outside of the box. Be open-minded!!!
I'm opting out early because I know I will be argued even if I present valid scripture to prove myself.

As if we don't "think outside the box?" If you don't think it has been accurately interpreted in this thread..... then by all means.... enlighten us. This is actually a DEBATE forum. Your opinion means little unless you are willing to back it up with scripture.

 

[skypair]

I'm not saying that I don't believe in election. I'm saying that I don't believe that it has been accurately interpreted in this thread.
All I'm trying to do is to get you guys to think outside of the box. Be open-minded!!!
I'm opting out early because I know I will be argued even if I present valid scripture to prove myself.

Kseeker -- hope you are not discouraged already. raying:

You are right regarding "election" --- God elected us to His purposes AFTER He foreknew which of us would receive Christ.

Those who don't receive Christ are left to their own purposes and destiny. Sadly, it is exactly the way they want it though NOT what God wants for them.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

Kseeker -- hope you are not discouraged already. raying:

You are right regarding "election" --- God elected us to His purposes AFTER He foreknew which of us would receive Christ.

Those who don't receive Christ are left to their own purposes and destiny. Sadly, it is exactly the way they want it though NOT what God wants for them.

skypair

As has been pointed out many times......... you need to learn a little about hermeneutics. Sentence structure and grammar determine the meaning. Of course if you want to ignore that........ you can make it mean whatever you wish... as you so perfectly do.

 

[Frogman]

Foreknowledge has nothing to do with the atoning work of Christ, God chose a people to be redeemed in Christ. His choice in this does not mean that He chose others to be eternally lost. They are left in their condition, having no desire for any thing of God and especially not of Christ.

All for whom Christ has died shall be eternally saved, not one will be found lacking or missing, Christ's work did not, has not, will not and cannot fail.

Else, we only make it to heaven by one of two things, that which is 'good' in us to cause us to exert a 'right' choice, or that of being overlooked by Satan, thereby making our redemption to be through the mercy of that father of lies.

bro. Dallas:wavey:

 

[skypair]

Foreknowledge has nothing to do with the atoning work of Christ, God chose a people to be redeemed in Christ.

fm -- this is precisely the error. What that says is that "election" itself, then, has nothing to do with the atoning world of Christ. "God chose a people to be redeemed" and then made them "humbly" say that Christ died for them.

Luther probably hit the epitome this contradiction of works with belief. He believed "that God had promised peace to the humble." Duh! Salvation is conditional on humility -- which is a pretty difficult thing to come by bbut doubtless a "work" and condition, in Luther's mind, of salvation.

But no -- the Bible says God chose people to salvation "in" Christ or "through" Christ. Christ was the "key" to His choosing/electing them. That makes salvation/election "on account of Christ" rather than "in spite of Christ."

skypair

 

[KSeeker]

I can't see how election could apply to the initial salvation of a man. Could election not apply to anything else? I cannot get past the contradictions in scripture if election does truly apply to spiritual salvation.
God sends His Son to be the savior of the whole world, yet in sending Him knows that only an elect few would believe? NO...that's contradictory. God did indeed send His Son to be the Savior of the whole world...no stipulations added...One day, hopefully soon, God the Father will see the work of His Son fulfilled as Philippians 2 tells us "9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 and that every tongue should confess Is. 45.23 that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
This is yet future. Can you see my point? God would not send His Son to die for the whole world if indeed the whole world would not come to a saving knowledge of Him at some time.

And we know by Romans 10:9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[skypair]

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 and that every tongue should confess Is. 45.23 that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
This is yet future. Can you see my point? God would not send His Son to die for the whole world if indeed the whole world would not come to a saving knowledge of Him at some time.

And we know by Romans 10:9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I see two points you seem to make:

1) Election has to do with something other that salvation itself. True. It has to do with the purpose given us by God through our salvation. Israel was saved out of Egypt and given a purpose/election -- to enter into the Promised Land. Same purpose/election for which God earlier saved Abram -- to make a nation and a people. But God first had to turn these to believe on Himself by faith.

2) I see you saying that all will be saved. No, all will confess, but for most, it will be ineffectual coming AFTER death. However, there are some "alls" we must acknowledge -- Christ died for ALL sins so that ALL will receive new bodies when ALL appear at their respective judgments.

skypair