The Gospel of YOUR Salvation !

[PreachTony]

No you joined this thread to debate comments I have explained already, now do you understand what I explained ? If you do prove it, lay it out !

DarrellC, it's best just to pat SBM on the back, tell him how brilliant he is, and move along. He does not like to debate, even though he posts so much on a debate forum. At least, that's been my experience. In another thread I asked him a very simple question based on his comments, and I asked that question five times without him ever responding except to accuse me of evading his points. I had no idea asking someone about a point they made was actually the same as evading the points they made.

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

I had no idea asking someone about a point they made

Then why cant you explain the point I made ! Show how i made the point !

 

[PreachTony]

Then why cant you explain the point I made ! Show how i made the point !

Because we shouldn't have to explain your points to you in order to discuss your points. Otherwise you must be having some very boring conversations.

SBM - "Take out the trash."

Someone else - "Okay, do you have anything else you want to throw away?"

SBM - "Wait. First, tell me why I told you to take out the trash. Explain my sentence back to me so I know you understood."

The fact that we are asking intelligent questions based off your comments should tell you that we understand. We shouldn't have to justify your thought process to you in order to have a discussion.

 

[Rippon]

Attention Everyone:

SBM is a giant vortex machine. He has designed an infinite loop. You are helpless in its grasp. Don't get sucked in.

 

[PreachTony]

SBM is a giant vortex machine. He has designed an infinite loop. You are helpless in its grasp. Don't get sucked in.

Good point.
Here's what I need to start doing when I find myself in his threads:

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

Because we shouldn't have to explain your points to you in order to discuss your points.

Yes you should, or all you are doing is evading them. You cant reasonably debate points I made if you dont understand them. And as long as you evade them, i have no idea you understand my reasoning for making the points i made !

 

[Darrell C]

No you joined this thread to debate comments I have explained already, now do you understand what I explained ? If you do prove it, lay it out !

I guess your refusal to answer my question indicates you did imply that those saved are saved before they are saved, lol.

The Gospel reaches the ears of natural men, and combined with the convicting ministry of the Comforter it is at that point they are supernaturally enlightened to their condition and the remedy, Christ. It is at that point they are, in their natural state, able to respond, or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Embracing Christ results in regeneration, rejecting Christ leaves them in their natural state, where, depending on the ministry of the Comforter, at some point they will either embrace Christ or be hardened in their heart, thus choosing eternal separation, which is just a continuation of the state of separation they are in when hearing the Gospel and coming under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

No man is saved before regeneration. No man is regenerated until he comes under the conviction of the Comforter and yields.

So now it is your turn: do you want to discuss the lost being saved before they hear the Gospel...or not?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Good point.
Here's what I need to start doing when I find myself in his threads:

Is that real? If so, I am shocked a President of the United States would behave so.


God bless.

 

[PreachTony]

Is that real? If so, I am shocked a President of the United States would behave so.

God bless.

No, my understanding is it was a skit he did for Saturday Night Live. Just a joke.

 

[Darrell C]

No, my understanding is it was a skit he did for Saturday Night Live. Just a joke.

Okay, thanks. That makes more sense.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

darrell

I guess your refusal to answer my question indicates you did imply that those saved are saved before they are saved, lol.

What I believe is posted clearly on this forum in my threads, I have not held back anything, you are just evasive of the points I have made, you are scared of them !

 

[savedbymercy]

Preaching/speaking the Mystery of Christ !

Col 4:2-3

2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving;

3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:


Many if not all in organized religion dont understand that to Preach Christ and Him Crucified, the Gospel 1 Cor 2:2 is to preach a Mystery !

It baffles me how many false teachers tell us that anyone can believe the Gospel of Christ, even a natural child ! But this is a Lie, not only can a natural child believe the Gospel, but neither can a natural adult, for the Gospel of Christ is a Mystery, which means something that needs to be revealed, because its out of the grasp of the natural ! How did Paul believe the Gospel of Christ ? It had to be revealed to him Gal 1:11-12

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Its to have the Son revealed in us Gal 1:16

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Now the Gospel of Christ as it is a Mysterty , in order for any to believe it, receive it, it must be revealed to us by the Spirit ! Again 1 Cor 2:1-7

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Now what is the Wisdom of God here spoken in a Mystery ? Its Christ an Him Crucified !

See 1 Cor 1:23-24

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Christ is the Wisdom of God in a Mystery 1 Cor 2:7 !

And so, a Mystery cannot be believed upon naturally, it must be revealed by God's Spirit !

We need the Spirit first to receive the things of the Spirit of God, which the Gospel of Christ is 1 Cor 2:12

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So when we read 1 Cor 15:3-4 these are Truths that are connected to A Mystery, the Mystery of Christ, and they cannot be savingly believed upon apart from a Divine revelation of the Spirit !

Anyone saying that anybody can believe the Gospel as a natural man, they are lying against the Truth !

 

[Darrell C]

darrell



What I believe is posted clearly on this forum in my threads, I have not held back anything, you are just evasive of the points I have made, you are scared of them !

I am afraid of the implication, yes, because it is misleading.

One is not saved prior to the Convicting Ministry of the Comforter. To teach people this is not something Scripture can support. It may place in the heart of a believer that there was something in them that justified their salvation, when the truth is that no man is worthy. All have fallen short, which would be a Bible Basic nullified by the teaching that people are born...

...saved.

All men enter into this life in a natural and separated condition, separated from God and dead in trespasses and sin. It is not a matter of one growing up to commit mortal sin and then they are condemned, but they are condemned at conception due to the fact that mankind was separated from God through the disobedience of on man.

And through the obedience of One men are given opportunity to be Reconciled to God, to remedy that separation and condemnation, their penalty placed upon and paid for by Christ Alone.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Col 4:2-3

Anyone saying that anybody can believe the Gospel as a natural man, they are lying against the Truth !

Which is why we need to pay careful attention to Christ's teaching:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The Comforter convicts the world, clearly defined as unbelievers. They understand the Gospel, not because they have this ability within themselves in their natural condition, but through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. Rejection of this Ministry is listed among those who reject Christ here...


Hebrews 10:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The natural man is reliant on God supernaturally enlightening that one to his condition and the remedy.

That's how you were saved, that's how I was saved, that's how everyone is saved.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

I am afraid of the implication, yes, because it is misleading.

One is not saved prior to the Convicting Ministry of the Comforter. To teach people this is not something Scripture can support. It may place in the heart of a believer that there was something in them that justified their salvation, when the truth is that no man is worthy. All have fallen short, which would be a Bible Basic nullified by the teaching that people are born...

...saved.

All men enter into this life in a natural and separated condition, separated from God and dead in trespasses and sin. It is not a matter of one growing up to commit mortal sin and then they are condemned, but they are condemned at conception due to the fact that mankind was separated from God through the disobedience of on man.

And through the obedience of One men are given opportunity to be Reconciled to God, to remedy that separation and condemnation, their penalty placed upon and paid for by Christ Alone.


God bless.

No sorry, you have denied the Truth of scripture again, Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies /unbelievers Rom 5:10 and they are made righteous /justified before God by the obedience of one Rom 5:19, you don't believe the scriptures!

 

[savedbymercy]

darrells false witness:

And through the obedience of One men are given opportunity to be Reconciled to God,

The scriptures says nothing about men being given an opportunity to be reconciled to God by the Obedience of One, that is a Lie straight from Hell !

The scripture says that by the Obedience of One Many SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS Rom 5:10.

Its no more a mere opportunity as is the antithesis was a mere opportunity to be made sinners by the disobdence of One Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Also the adversary denied that those Christ died for are reconciled to God BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, even while being enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The deceiver says that it was only a opportunity to be reconciled ! Denying the work of the Death of Christ !

 

[Darrell C]

No sorry, you have denied the Truth of scripture again, Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies /unbelievers Rom 5:10

Don't be sorry, I am sure you are sincere in your charges, lol.


Romans 5:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



You are nullifying so much in trying to teach that men are saved before they are saved.

Paul makes it very clear that death passed to all men.

Now since you say that the saved are born saved, and Paul states that death passed to all men, this would mean that death passed only to those prior to the Cross, right?

This would be another conflict in your doctrine.

and they are made righteous /justified before God by the obedience of one Rom 5:19,

Romans 5:16-19

King James Version (KJV)

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Through Adam's sin death reigned.

That means everyone.

Notice in v.17...much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

This speaks of everyone that is obedient to the Gospel, a demand made of everyone who wishes to be saved.

you don't believe the scriptures!

I believe the Word of God as a whole, not just the parts that support the teachings I want to present:


John 1:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


John does not ignore man's condition of separation, condemnation, and death.

Only those that believe on His name are saved. And to believe one must first hear the Gospel.


John 3:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


The Lord does not ignore man's condition of separation, condemnation, and death.

And He makes it clear that those who do not come to believe not only will be condemned, but are condemned already. No way someone is born believing.


1 John 3:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.



Men are commanded to believe, and not just believers.

This man, and his family...


Acts 16:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


...were not born saved.

You need to fill in those gaps in your teaching with the rest of what God has given us. Men are not born saved, they are born dead in trespasses and sins, separated from God, and awaiting punishment because they lie under the penalty of sin.

Sometimes...


Ephesians 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Ephesians 5:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:


Titus 3:2-5

King James Version (KJV)

2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



...sometimes is an important word.



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

darrells false witness:

You have not even addressed what I have said.

Are you going to respond to the points made? Or just keep leapfrogging because you cannot.

The scriptures says nothing about men being given an opportunity to be reconciled to God by the Obedience of One, that is a Lie straight from Hell !

Here is the clearest example, perhaps you have heard of it?


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


If you can't see opportunity in that you have my deepest sympathy.


Romans 3:21-22

King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


The way of eternal life in Christ did not begin until Christ died and sent the Promised Spirit:


Romans 16:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


The Gospel was not revealed to men before Pentecost, which denies your teaching that the Church, the Body of Christ, existed in the Old Testament, and that men are born saved.

The scripture says that by the Obedience of One Many SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS Rom 5:10.

That does not nullify the obedience to the Gospel all men are commanded to:


2 Thessalonians 1:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Romans 10:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



This is how men are saved, through obedience to the Gospel.

Its no more a mere opportunity as is the antithesis was a mere opportunity to be made sinners by the disobdence of One Rom 5:19

False argument.

And it overlooks what this verse actually teaches, which is all men were made sinners through Adam's disobedience.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again, all men were made sinners, and let me explain why this does not exclude the "saved" you teach: if you try to say "The saved are excluded from this," then how do you explain then being made righteous?

In other words...that they are made righteous through the obedience of Christ shows they were not saved.

Understand?

Also the adversary denied that those Christ died for are reconciled to God BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, even while being enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You are the one denying that.

You're trying to say they were saved before being saved and then here...you admit they were enemies/unbelievers.

Just as in your teaching which I initially addressed, which you have subsequently ignored, you are trying to teach two conflicting things at once.

You need to do a little weeding. Get rid of the conflict and conform to the Gospel of Christ.

The deceiver says that it was only a opportunity to be reconciled ! Denying the work of the Death of Christ !

You deny the opportunity, no need to drag Satan into it.

This...


Romans 10:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


...makes it clear men must come to believe through hearing the Gospel of Christ.

The saved are not saved before they are saved.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

Don't be sorry, I am sure you are sincere in your charges, lol.


Romans 5:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



You are nullifying so much in trying to teach that men are saved before they are saved.

Paul makes it very clear that death passed to all men.

Now since you say that the saved are born saved, and Paul states that death passed to all men, this would mean that death passed only to those prior to the Cross, right?

This would be another conflict in your doctrine.





Romans 5:16-19

King James Version (KJV)

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Through Adam's sin death reigned.

That means everyone.

Notice in v.17...much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

This speaks of everyone that is obedient to the Gospel, a demand made of everyone who wishes to be saved.




I believe the Word of God as a whole, not just the parts that support the teachings I want to present:


John 1:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


John does not ignore man's condition of separation, condemnation, and death.

Only those that believe on His name are saved. And to believe one must first hear the Gospel.


John 3:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


The Lord does not ignore man's condition of separation, condemnation, and death.

And He makes it clear that those who do not come to believe not only will be condemned, but are condemned already. No way someone is born believing.


1 John 3:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.



Men are commanded to believe, and not just believers.

This man, and his family...


Acts 16:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


...were not born saved.

You need to fill in those gaps in your teaching with the rest of what God has given us. Men are not born saved, they are born dead in trespasses and sins, separated from God, and awaiting punishment because they lie under the penalty of sin.

Sometimes...


Ephesians 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Ephesians 5:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:


Titus 3:2-5

King James Version (KJV)

2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



...sometimes is an important word.



God bless.

You are still in denial of the Truth! Christ death made them He died for Righteous Rom 5:19 !

 

[savedbymercy]

You have not even addressed what I have said.

Are you going to respond to the points made? Or just keep leapfrogging because you cannot.




Here is the clearest example, perhaps you have heard of it?


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


If you can't see opportunity in that you have my deepest sympathy.


Romans 3:21-22

King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


The way of eternal life in Christ did not begin until Christ died and sent the Promised Spirit:


Romans 16:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


The Gospel was not revealed to men before Pentecost, which denies your teaching that the Church, the Body of Christ, existed in the Old Testament, and that men are born saved.





That does not nullify the obedience to the Gospel all men are commanded to:


2 Thessalonians 1:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Romans 10:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



This is how men are saved, through obedience to the Gospel.




False argument.

And it overlooks what this verse actually teaches, which is all men were made sinners through Adam's disobedience.




Again, all men were made sinners, and let me explain why this does not exclude the "saved" you teach: if you try to say "The saved are excluded from this," then how do you explain then being made righteous?

In other words...that they are made righteous through the obedience of Christ shows they were not saved.

Understand?





You are the one denying that.

You're trying to say they were saved before being saved and then here...you admit they were enemies/unbelievers.

Just as in your teaching which I initially addressed, which you have subsequently ignored, you are trying to teach two conflicting things at once.

You need to do a little weeding. Get rid of the conflict and conform to the Gospel of Christ.




You deny the opportunity, no need to drag Satan into it.

This...


Romans 10:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


...makes it clear men must come to believe through hearing the Gospel of Christ.

The saved are not saved before they are saved.


God bless.

You are still in denial of the Truth, Christ's death actually reconciled sinners to God while they are enemies! Rom 5:10, Not provide a opportunity to be reconciled, that is a lie and a diminishment of the Work of Christ!