The Gospel that Calvinism cannot believe.

[JonC]

Yes, it does.



I believe God's Word.



God chose His elect before the world even began. Their status, state, and standing was all in the the mind of God in eternity.



J.C. Philpot answered your objection. See my post #132 above.



Yes, they are. God chose His elect before the world even began.



The Bible teaches that man is totally depraved, that God unconditionally chose a people before the world even began, that Christ Jesus came to earth and paid the total sin debt of those God unconditionally chose before the world even began, that the Holy Spirit brings God's elect(at least those who reach an age where they can hear it) under the hearing of the gospel of Christ at some point during their earthly sojourn and under that hearing will regenerate them and grant them the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ and the gift of repentance of the dead works they previously relied on, and that God preserves those He unconditionally chose before the world even began and will ultimately bring them to the new heavens and new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

You probably do to a great extent.

On this topic you believe what a relatively minority sect says God's Word realky teaches. That is not the same.

God's Word is what we believe when we lean not on our understanding but on every word that comes from God. What you have posted here describing your belief is not God's Word any more than what Jehovah Witnesses believe is taught by the Bible is God's Word.

If you read a poem the poem is what is written by the poet. What that poem means to you, or the lessons you think is taught by that poem is not the poem itself, and if you get it wrong you miss what the poet was trying to communicate.

You read God's Word, however you choose to believe what other men who "tickle your ears" tell you thise words are really trying to teach.

Have you ever considered that just maybe what is written in the Bible IS what God's Word teaches?

 

[JonC]

I want people the read the entire Word of God - from the first verse of Genesis to the last verse of Revelation.

I want people to read the entire Bible as well. But I also want them to realize that the Bible is God's Eord. It is His revelation to man. So I want them to understand that the Bible is teaching "what is written" in the text of Scripture rather than philosophies and theories.

It does not do a man any good to read the Bible and then dismiss the text in favor of what others tell him is taught by the Bible.

The only reason to turn from Scripture to what some say is taught by Scripture is that God's Word does not make sence to that person in and of itself. They want more but they end up with less. The Spirit teaches, reveals, applies and illuminates what is written. Man developed theiries and theologies to maje sence of what Renaissance just beyond their grasp.

 

[JonC]

@JonC, I recommend to you and others reading this post to read Bill Parker's book, What Is Salvation, only 112 pages, and available as a free pdf here - https://n.b5z.net/i/u/10086795/f/What_is_Salvation.pdf.

I am sure you could recommend a lot of books for non-Calvinists to read. And I have read a lot of books. I once shared your belief.

But now if I want to know "What is Salvation", do you know where I go? You got it. I go to God's Word.

Why?

Because every theory, philosophy and theology has books about what Salvation "really" is. They all have different opinions and men pick the ones they like. BUT none of those books compare to what God Himself tells us Salvation is.

Think about it. You want me to read a 112 page book explaining what Salvation "really" is when I have God's own words at my fingertips.

I will decline.

If I am wrong it will be for believing God, or at worse for minor misunderstandings or interpretations of His Word.

If you are wrong it will be for believing men you choose to believe out of all the men wanting to tell you what the Bible really says.

I will take my chances with God. You take your chances with Bill Parker.

 

[Brightfame52]

Well since I am not an Arminian it really does not impact what I believe.

Read the article, you may have some things in common

 

[JonC]

Well since I am not an Arminian it really does not impact what I believe.

The bible tells us that all are drawn to God and Christ died for all sinners and all can freely respond to the various means that God uses to draw man to Himself.

But I see you are still holding to your anti-biblical views BF.

Thankfully I follow the God of the bible not one found in any of the "ism's"

Most calvinists truely do not understand anything beyond Calvinism. Arminianism is of a calvinistic trajectory (it was, at one time, within orthodox Calvinism and grew out of that philosophy). So many only grasp non-Calvinist as Arminianism. Their religious world literally began in the 16th century.

 

[Van]

How so ? Confessing Christ is an spiritual action. In 1 Jn 4:15 shall confess is aorist active. Active means:

Definition of "Active"
Represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "Jesus returned to Capernaum" Jesus performs the action.

And he that performs that action its evidence that God dwells in them { the Spirit] and he in God

This isnt something the natural man does, sorry charlie.

Likewise in Rom 10:9 same word confess in active voice, performing an action

Spiritual actions are evidences of life

Now if you take them to be conditions, then you promote salvation by your works, your actions of performance.

One of the most common ways false teachers present bogus views is to claim something in the Greek grammar requires that their view be accepted as valid. But, their premise is bogus. Those in Matthew 7 said in the active voice, Lord Lord.

Next, the claim that the many of Luke 13:24 were not "natural" people! Ludicrous.

Calvinism falsely claims salvation by grace through faith in a works based salvation, ignoring Romans 4.

 

[Silverhair]

Read the article, you may have some things in common

I would hope that all Christians would have some things in common even those that hold to some "ism". I will stick with the word of God's word.

 

[Dave...]

Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Nope. Abraham did not have perfect faith.

God will not accept imperfection.

Abraham, as all of God's elect, was justified by Christ's perfect righteousness, not his imperfect faith.

And we are justified by through what?

Listen to Paul....

Romans 4:23-25, 5:1-2 Now it was not written for his [Abrahams] sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

A believer is not imputed with Gods righteousness until he believes. Believing places us in Christ, which gives believers the imputed righteousness, atonement, making them justified, and they also are born again. At that moment, your new life begins, grace begins, your faith (Hebrews 11) begins. By faith we enter into that grace. Initial believe/faith (Paul) to justification. In Christ, the ongoing faith (James) is a living faith powered by grace.

 

[Brightfame52]

One of the most common ways false teachers present bogus views is to claim something in the Greek grammar requires that their view be accepted as valid. But, their premise is bogus. Those in Matthew 7 said in the active voice, Lord Lord.

Next, the claim that the many of Luke 13:24 were not "natural" people! Ludicrous.

Calvinism falsely claims salvation by grace through faith in a works based salvation, ignoring Romans 4.

It's a good work

 

[Brightfame52]

I would hope that all Christians would have some things in common even those that hold to some "ism". I will stick with the word of God's word.

Did you read the article?

 

[Brightfame52]

And we are justified by through what?

Listen to Paul....

Romans 4:23-25, 5:1-2 Now it was not written for his [Abrahams] sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

A believer is not imputed with Gods righteousness until he believes. Believing places us in Christ, which gives believers the imputed righteousness, atonement, making them justified, and they also are born again. At that moment, your new life begins, grace begins, your faith (Hebrews 11) begins. By faith we enter into that grace. Initial believe/faith (Paul) to justification. In Christ, the ongoing faith (James) is a living faith powered by grace.

Romans 8:33

 

[Dave...]

And just as Christ paid the sin debt for all of God's elect - even those not yet born - all of God's elect were justified by the perfect righteousness of Christ(which He would finish in His human body during His earthly life) when God elected them.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Certainly justification by the perfect righteousness of Christ is a spiritual blessing in verse 3 above.

Emphasis on "in Him, and "in Christ". If we are already in Christ from the foundations of the world, then we were never "in Adam" and never needed to be saved.

This is a quote from another source [---] added by me. This really says it well. We cannot overlook the importance of "in Him or "in Christ", as it is said many times in the first half of Ephesians.

"In Ephesians 1, being chosen "in Him" means believers are elected as part of God's pre-temporal plan to adopt and redeem them through faith in Christ. God chose Jesus [Lamb slain from the foundations of the world], and through that union with Him, believers become part of His divine purpose to be holy and blameless, receiving this blessing through grace, not human merit. This election is not arbitrary but stems from God's loving will and purpose to bring glory to His grace by adopting believers into His family as heirs."

As I understand it, if Jesus is the chosen one and elect, then when believers become "in Him" through faith, we are chosen and elect with Him, from the foundations of the world.

Paul goes on to say...

11-14 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Get you get that? The inheritance that we inherited "in Him" is being predestined with Him. "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" The Holy Spirit is given by faith, not election.

 

[Dave...]

Romans 8:33

I'm not sure where you believe the point of contention is. I don't see one.

 

[Dave...]

Is now a good time to mention we are 130 posts in and no Calvinist has yet been able to provide a passage that :

1. Says God punished Jesus for our sins instead of us

I'm guessing that the point you're making runs a little deeper than what I'm seeing at a glance, but here goes...

Would Romans 4:25 qualify?

who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed.

Galatians 3:13, 1 John 2:2.

 

[JonC]

I'm guessing that the point you're making runs a little deeper than what I'm seeing at a glance, but here goes...

Would Romans 4:25 qualify?

who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed.

Galatians 3:13, 1 John 2:2.

Hey Dave.

The point I was making is simply that the idea God was punishing Jesus for our sins instead of us csme from Calvinism (his reform of Aquinas' theory) and while many today automatically view this as in the Bible this was not the case for centuries.

No, those passages do not qualify as stating that belief.


For example, I believe that Jesus died for our sins and that it was by His stripes we were healed - the Just for the unjust. But I do not believe God was punishing Jesus instead of us.

I grew up in a SBC church (and am still SBC). When the SBC was formed tgat idea of God punishing Jesus for our dins was very questionable. It was a Presbyterian (Calvinist) doctrine that many objected to as bring nothing but a different form of Roman Catholic doctrine.

Some Baptists believed it, others did not. The SBC allowed for both (some SBC presidents held the view, others objected to the view) Today it has become more accepted among Baptists and has become the most common view. But it came from the Presbyterian church and was a reform of the Roman Cathokic view at the time of the Reformation.

 

[Dave...]

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

Luke 23:35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God."

1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,

"The doctrine of election is the sum of the Gospel because of all words that can be said or heard it is the best: that God elects man; that God is for man too the One who loves in freedom. It is grounded in the knowledge of Jesus Christ because He is both the electing God and the elected man in One. It is part of the doctrine of God because originally God’s election of man is a predestination not merely of many but of Himself. Its function is to bear basic testimony to eternal, free and unchanging grace as the beginning of all the ways and works of God."---Calvinist, Karl Barth, Church Dogmatics (Edinburgh, UK: T & T Clark, 1975)

 

[Silverhair]

Did you read the article?

No, as it does not matter to me as I hold to the word of God not some "ism". Could I have some things in common with those of the Arminian or Calvinist view sure. Do I hold to either view as the only way to understand God's word NO I do not.

All the "ism's" are just man's way of trying to explain the word of God. So I prefer to just go to His word and cut out the middle man.

I have commentaries from various views and do read them but I do not base by theology on what I find in man's word.

I was taught that the bible is it's own best commentary and that has proven to be true.

 

[Dave...]

Hey Dave.

The point I was making is simply that the idea God was punishing Jesus for our sins instead of us csme from Calvinism (his reform of Aquinas' theory) and while many today automatically view this as in the Bible this was not the case for centuries.

No, those passages do not qualify as stating that belief.


For example, I believe that Jesus died for our sins and that it was by His stripes we were healed - the Just for the unjust. But I do not believe God was punishing Jesus instead of us.

I grew up in a SBC church (and am still SBC). When the SBC was formed tgat idea of God punishing Jesus for our dins was very questionable. It was a Presbyterian (Calvinist) doctrine that many objected to as bring nothing but a different form of Roman Catholic doctrine.

Some Baptists believed it, others did not. The SBC allowed for both (some SBC presidents held the view, others objected to the view) Today it has become more accepted among Baptists and has become the most common view. But it came from the Presbyterian church and was a reform of the Roman Cathokic view at the time of the Reformation.

Hey Jon

I never really looked at it that deeply. Isn't His death on the cross, considered both satisfying God's justice and punishment? I'm not sure that I'm getting the importance of the distinction.

Would you say this is an accurate statement.

Your statement describes the belief in penal substitutionary atonement, but with a specific nuance that God was not punishing Jesus instead of humanity, but rather that Jesus took the penalty for sin upon Himself as a substitute. This perspective, supported by verses like 2 Corinthians 5:21 and 1 Peter 2:24, emphasizes that Jesus' suffering was a necessary act to satisfy God's justice and make reconciliation with God possible.

I'm still not seeing the difference between satisfying Gods justice and punishment. The penalty for sin is death, right? That's punishment, right?

 

[Dave...]

Hey Dave.

The point I was making is simply that the idea God was punishing Jesus for our sins instead of us csme from Calvinism (his reform of Aquinas' theory) and while many today automatically view this as in the Bible this was not the case for centuries.

No, those passages do not qualify as stating that belief.


For example, I believe that Jesus died for our sins and that it was by His stripes we were healed - the Just for the unjust. But I do not believe God was punishing Jesus instead of us.

I grew up in a SBC church (and am still SBC). When the SBC was formed tgat idea of God punishing Jesus for our dins was very questionable. It was a Presbyterian (Calvinist) doctrine that many objected to as bring nothing but a different form of Roman Catholic doctrine.

Some Baptists believed it, others did not. The SBC allowed for both (some SBC presidents held the view, others objected to the view) Today it has become more accepted among Baptists and has become the most common view. But it came from the Presbyterian church and was a reform of the Roman Cathokic view at the time of the Reformation.

Jon

Would the idea of Jesus being the one who was elect from the foundations of the world, and we are elect when we are "in him", that being after we come to faith, put any weight for or against your understanding that is quoted above?

 

[KenH]

I will take my chances with God.

You write like salvation is similar to trying to find the winning horse to bet on in the Kentucky Derby.

I take no chances with my salvation, as my salvation is not resting on me, or you, or Bill Parker, or any other man, but in the God-man, Christ Jesus. I know Whom I have believed.

2 Timothy 1:12 I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

And what have I committed unto Christ? My whole salvation.