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The Great God and Saviour of us Jesus Christ

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SavedByGrace

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Hence ambiguity. :) Had the translation made the reference to one Person clear, as the NKJV, there would be no issue to discuss.

But, as I have shown from the OP, even without "grammatical" issues, the words in verse 13 can only refer to Jesus Christ!
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Titus 2:13

“προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ” (Titus 2:13)

How should these words be rendered into English? There are two main readings:

Those, like the King James Version, refer these words to Two Persons:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ” (1611)

The Revised Version of 1881, refers the words to One Person, Jesus Christ:

“looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”

There is a third, which is the literal reading of the Greek text:

“looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and Saviour of us Jesus Christ”

The genitive, “ἡμῶν”, can be translated as “of us”, as it can be in other places, like Galatians 1:4, where the literal reading of the Greek, “τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς ἡμῶν”, is, “the will of the God and Father of us

I am not going to refer to the “First Rule” of the Greek Scholar, Granville Sharpe, which some use for the reading of Titus 2:13, as the RV. Because I have seen that this “Rule” is not always the case, as I have found examples in the New Testament, and Patristic Greek, that do not hold up. As I will show, the reading of the RV, and the majority of English Versions, can be shown apart from this “Rule”, of the Greek grammar.

In the first place, if Paul had written, “τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου κυρίου καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ”, there would be no problem in it being translated as , “the Glory of our Great Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”, and referring all the words to One Person, Jesus Christ. It is only because some reject that Jesus Christ, IS called here “The Great God”; and others, who are “Evangelical” Christians, hesitate to use this for Jesus, that there is any discussion on this verse. In Isaiah 9:6, one of the Names for Jesus Christ, in the Prophetic passage, is “אֵל גִּבּוֹר”, which is, “Mighty God”. Here also, some have tried to remove any reference to the Deity of Jesus Christ, by translating the words, “Mighty chief” (Ibn Ezra, 12th century); “The Mighty God is planning grace” (JPS. 1999), etc,. However, the same Hebrew, “אֵל גִּבּוֹר”, is used in Isaiah 10:21, for Yahweh, and it is always translated, even by Ibn Ezra, and the JPS version, by “mighty God”. In fact, the Jewish Targum, reads in Isaiah 9:6, “the mighty God who liveth to eternity, the Messiah” (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 9:5). This is a Jewish translation, and the passage is Messianic, and reads, “the mighty God”. Manuscripts of the LXX Greek Old Testament, read, “Θεὸς ἰσχυρός”, which is, “God Mighty”. Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses (JW’s) read “Mighty God”! Why do some say that the Apostle Paul could not call Jesus Christ, “the Great God”, when it is exactly what the Prophet Isaiah says of Jesus Christ?

In Acts 20:28, we have the Apostle Paul say, “the Church of the God (του θεου), which He has purchased with His own blood”. Clear reference to Jesus Christ as God, Who died on the cross. This cannot refer to the Father. In the natural reading of Romans 9:5, “Christ Who is over all God blessed for ever. Amen”, Paul again calls Jesus Christ God. In Romans 10:13, Paul says, “For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved”. Which is from Joel 2:32, “And it shall come to pass, whosoever shall call on the name of Yahweh shall be delivered” The Greek Version, the Septuagint, reads, “ And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved”. Clearly in Romans, Paul uses the verse from Joel, which is about Yahweh, for Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 10:9, again Paul says, “Neither let us tempt the Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents”. This also is a reference to the Old Testament, Numbers 21:6, “And Yahweh sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died”, which Paul uses for Jesus Christ. Then, in Philippians 2:6, Paul says of Jesus Christ, “Who is from eternity (ὑπάρχων) in the very nature of God”. Which is what he also says in Colossians 2:9, “For in Him dwells (κατοικει, continually) all the fullness of the Deity (θεότης, “deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead”, Thayer Greek lexicon) bodily”. Can any doubt that Paul taught that Jesus Christ IS Yahweh, The Almighty God?

2 Timothy 4:1 is very similar to Titus 2:13

“Διαμαρτύρομαι ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ μέλλοντος κρίνειν ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, καὶ τὴν ἐπιφάνειαν αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτοῦ”

“I charge you in the presence of the God and Christ Jesus, Who is about to Judge the living and the dead, and by His Appearing and His Kingdom”

Here, “τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ”, refers to one Person, Jesus Christ, Who is called God. “τοῦ μέλλοντος κρίνειν”, Singular, “Who is about to Judge”. Like Titus, here Paul also speaks of the “ἐπιφάνειαν (Appearance)” of Jesus Christ. Also it is “βασιλείαν αὐτοῦ”, again in the singular, “His Kingdom”, all referring to Jesus Christ. The particle “καὶ” is used in the sense as “even”, connecting “God” with “Christ Jesus”.

In 2 Peter 1:1, again we read, “του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου”. Which is, “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”, One Person Who is “God and Saviour”. In verse 11 it reads, “του κυριου ημων και σωτηρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”, as it does in 2:20 “του κυρίου καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”. And in 3:18, “του κυριου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου”. The first, “of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”. The second, “of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”. And the third, “of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”. In the first and third readings, the words are almost identical to 1:1, the ONLY difference being, “θεου” is in 1:1, and the others read, “κυρίου”.

The JW’s translate 2 Peter 1:1, “"of our God and [the] Saviour Jesus Christ" (Kingdom Interlinear). “the” is in brackets so not in the Greek. And in the Emphatic Diaglott, “of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”. Again, clear testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ. In the Unitarian New Testament by George Noyes, 2 Peter 1:1, reads, “of our God, and the Saviour Jesus Christ”. Yet in the other three places, it reads as I have given the English above. The JW’ are the same here. I mention this because it is important to see how the Word of God is twisted by those who oppose the Bible’s Teaching on the Deity of Jesus Christ. Not because of what the Bible actually teaches, but for their theology.

There are some, who do not accept that this verse is about Jesus Christ, who argue, that this “Appearing”, is only of Jesus in the sense that He will Come in “τῆς δόξης” (the Glory), of the Father, and apply “τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ” (the Great God), to the Father. In Matthew 16:27, Jesus Himself says, “For the Son of man shall Come in the Glory of His Father”. Paul does not say in Titus 2:13, “τοῦ μεγάλου πατρος” (the Glory of the Father), which would have removed any ambiguity. Even if we were to accept that Paul does mean, that “τῆς δόξης”, is that of “the Father”, in what sense are we to understand this? Surely this must mean that God the Father, and Jesus Christ, share in the one same Glory. Whether we understand “τῆς δόξης”, as referring to, “Honour, Renown, Glory”; or, to “ Shekinah Glory”, the “Splendor”, by which Yahweh Appeared in the Old Testament. This would make Jesus Christ as COEQUAL with the Father, and prove His Deity. In John 17:5, Jesus says, “And now, O Father, Glorify You Me with (πᾰρά, alongside) Your own self with the Glory ( τη δοξη) which I had (ειχον, always had) with (πᾰρά, alongside) You before the world existed”. The “Glory” of the Father and Jesus Christ has from eternity past, been EQUAL, and the SAME. In Hebrews 1:3, we read of Jesus Christ, “ος ων απαυγασμα της δοξης”, “Who being (always) the Effulgence of The Glory”, not (His Glory as in some Versions, which is not in the Greek). In Isaiah 42:8, we read, “I am Yahweh, that is My Name; I will not give My Glory to another, Nor My praise to idols”. For Jesus Christ to have the SAME Glory as the Father, can only mean that He is Almighty God. In Revelation 5:13, it says about the Father and Jesus Christ, that ALL “The Blessing, and The Honor, and The Glory (η δοξα), and The Power”, belong to BOTH. And in the next verse, They are BOTH Worshipped. The language of Titus is clear to the Deity of Jesus Christ.

Had the Apostle Paul wished to show that “the Great God” refers to “God the Father”, and “our Saviour” to “Jesus Christ”. He would have made this very clear, where there can be no doubt in the Greek, by writing, “τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ”. By using the Greek article “τοῦ” with “σωτῆρος” (Saviour), he would have clearly shown the distinction of the Two Persons.

Only those who cannot accept that the Bible does, in many places, Teach the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, will have problems with these verses, and translate and understand them according to their theology, and not as the Bible teaches. Their inconsistencies, as we have seen, when they render the Greek into English, is for their purposes, and does not reflect the truth as in Scripture.
The version you use must be the critical text. You mentioned Greek grammar. Are you speaking of the grammar of the original text. If so I would like to know what that grammar is based on. Since Biblical Greek and modern Greek are not the same. Nor is there any Text explaining the grammar used in Biblical Greek from the time of Biblical Greek
MB
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
The version you use must be the critical text. You mentioned Greek grammar. Are you speaking of the grammar of the original text. If so I would like to know what that grammar is based on. Since Biblical Greek and modern Greek are not the same. Nor is there any Text explaining the grammar used in Biblical Greek from the time of Biblical Greek
MB

NT Greek which is Koine, or "common". Not modern Greek. What is your issue?
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sharp's "Rule" fails here! Matthew 17:1, “τον πετρον και ιακωβον και ιωαννην”

and here...

Romans 1:7, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”

1 Corinthians 1:3, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”

2 Corinthians 1:2, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”

Galatians 1:3, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοϋ Χριστοῦ”

And in Patristic Greek

Polycarp Martydom 22 (about 155 AD), “δόζα τώ θεώ καί πατρί καί άγίω πνεύματι…ω ή δόξα σύν τώ πατρί καϊ άγίω πνεύματι εις ούς αιώνας τών αιώνων, αμήν”
Sharp Redivivus? - A Reexamination of the Granville Sharp Rule | Bible.org
 

Van

Well-Known Member
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the so called "fix" is for theology! Both readings are allowed by the Greek in the verse! How much Greek grammar do you know?
Advocating ambiguous translation choices allows false doctrine to be read into the text.
I know next to nothing concerning Greek grammar, but I can read English, which apparently is your problem.
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Advocating ambiguous translation choices allows false doctrine to be read into the text.
I know next to nothing concerning Greek grammar, but I can read English, which apparently is your problem.

you do know that the New Testament was written in Greek, and not English? So, your knowledge of the English language matters ZERO!
 

tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
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The version you use must be the critical text. You mentioned Greek grammar. Are you speaking of the grammar of the original text. If so I would like to know what that grammar is based on. Since Biblical Greek and modern Greek are not the same. Nor is there any Text explaining the grammar used in Biblical Greek from the time of Biblical Greek
MB

Well I have studied the doctrine of the Godhead and each member of the Godhead, had a purpose and neither one could carry out the purpose of the other, though ALL were connected to the purpose to SAVE, just one, if just one needed saving... As a preacher I know has said... Three in one and one in three and the one in the middle died for me!... Brethren on here as long as I've been here, having been trying to explain the Trinity?... As they say its above your pay grade!... I believe in three person but one God... Do you have the Father giving to the Son, who is the Father?... Do you have Jesus Christ praying to himself?... What are you going to do with the Holy Spirit?... Some brethren one here treat him like a non-entity... The Godhead... The Eternal Father is the creator... The Eternal Son is the redeemer and The Holy Spirit is the regenerator... And without the purpose and working of the Godhead, the three and one together... None would be saved!... And would someone please explain these verses to me, does the Son deliver the Kingdom to himself?

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And btw... Don't you you brethren try to slide your millennial reign in here, it doesn't fit!... Brother Glen:)
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
you do know that the New Testament was written in Greek, and not English? So, your knowledge of the English language matters ZERO!
Is this the height of you expertise, to waste time with false charges. Know-it-all blowhards are a stain on bible study.
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Yes we see you have the unmitigated gall, the unabashed temerity to question the knowledge level of Dr. Dan Wallace.

WOW! Dr Wallace, so he must be right? Yeah, he is also very wrong to reject 1 John 5:7 as in the KJV, as the Greek grammar shows in verses 6-10, that the disputed words about the Holy Trinity, MUST form part of the passage, or else the Greek Grammar is faulty, which is impossible, as God Himself Inspired the Writers of the 66 Books of the Holy Bible. Wallace as a Greek "scholar" should know about this, and if he does, then his knowledge of the grammar here is wrong! Don't let "scholars" make you think that they must be right!
 

MB

Well-Known Member
NT Greek which is Koine, or "common". Not modern Greek. What is your issue?
My Problem is the history of where the grammar comes from.There is no 2000 year old books on Grammar. Nor are there dictionaries from the period. There is nothing on punctuation. Paragraphs or sentences that I am able to find. Not speaking the language them selves, where did these Greek scholars come up with the proper grammar for that period.
MB
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
My Problem is the history of where the grammar comes from.There is no 2000 year old books on Grammar. Nor are there dictionaries from the period. There is nothing on punctuation. Paragraphs or sentences that I am able to find. Not speaking the language them selves, where did these Greek scholars come up with the proper grammar for that period.
MB

this might help you, Ancient Greek grammar - Wikipedia
 
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