The high cost of a believer rejecting Jesus Christ

[icthus]

Originally posted by icthus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
That is entirely different. God does save only those who are in his image, and he loves his image in man. But our sin makes us worthless. I think you are not fully interacting with the effects of sin in the human life. I think you are underestimating just how bad it is. And I think that shows in a number of areas, such as the human will, desires, thinking, etc.

No, Larry, in fact it agree with what you say here </font>[/QUOTE]What are you puzzled? I agree with this

"God does save only those who are in his image, and he loves his image in man. But our sin makes us worthless."

Since the whole of manking is in God's Image, there is no problem

 

[Pastor Larry]

But our sins have been atoned and are no longer charged against us because His only begotten son Paid for them. However, if we are not repentant of our sins, what evidence do we show to God that we have been changed?

This is true for beleivers. It is not true for unbelievers, as we have shown from Scripture.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But our sins have been atoned and are no longer charged against us because His only begotten son Paid for them. However, if we are not repentant of our sins, what evidence do we show to God that we have been changed?

This is true for beleivers. It is not true for unbelievers, as we have shown from Scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]No. Christ' Atonement is for "everyone without exception" The person who goes to hell, goes there because of their wilful rejection of what Christ has done for them (2 Peter 2:1), and not because the Atonement is not for their sins (see also 1 John 2:2)

 

[Pastor Larry]

The atonement is "for" their sins, in the sense that it is sufficient. It is not, nor can it be, "for" their sins in the sense of payment, because for God to accept payment for sins including the sin of unbelief, and then to send people ot hell for those same sins for another payment would be unjust. We do not serve an unjust God. If Christ paid for sins, then those people for whose sins he paid will be in heaven for all eternity. They will not go to hell.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But our sins have been atoned and are no longer charged against us because His only begotten son Paid for them. However, if we are not repentant of our sins, what evidence do we show to God that we have been changed?

This is true for beleivers. It is not true for unbelievers, as we have shown from Scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]Even so, the sins of unbelievers have by the same atonement been paid for! Atonement for the sins of the world is atonement for the sins of the world regardless of the faith condition of the human. It cannot be any other way or YOU make the atonement less than God made it!

You cannot say the rain that falls on the just and unjust alike is not just as effective for the unjust as it is for the just! It simply don't work that way!

The same goes for God's Grace which is God's behavior to all mankind alike. The Just and the unjust alike are in God's grace, regardless of their faith condition.

You seem to think that Grace, Atonement and Mercy give the believer an advantage but you are quite simply wrong!

The advantage for the BELIEVER rests in SALVATION alone! ONLY those with FAITH IN GOD are saved!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The atonement is "for" their sins, in the sense that it is sufficient. It is not, nor can it be, "for" their sins in the sense of payment, because for God to accept payment for sins including the sin of unbelief, and then to send people ot hell for those same sins for another payment would be unjust. We do not serve an unjust God. If Christ paid for sins, then those people for whose sins he paid will be in heaven for all eternity. They will not go to hell.

Would you consider for once that sins that have been atoned do not send a person to hell! PERIOD!

The only reason a person is sent to hell is because that person lacks faith in GOD! End of Story!

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The atonement is "for" their sins, in the sense that it is sufficient. It is not, nor can it be, "for" their sins in the sense of payment, because for God to accept payment for sins including the sin of unbelief, and then to send people ot hell for those same sins for another payment would be unjust. We do not serve an unjust God. If Christ paid for sins, then those people for whose sins he paid will be in heaven for all eternity. They will not go to hell.

Do you think you might be able to deal with the two text I gave. Hear what Dabney says on 1 John 2:2

"In 1 Jno.ii.2, it is at least doubtful whether the express phrase, 'whole world', can be restrained to the world of the elect as including others than Jews. For it is indisputable, that the Apostle extends the propitiation of Christ beyond those whom he speaks of as 'we' in verse first" (Systematic Theology, p.525)

Larry, are you willing to listen to what Dabney, a Calvinist, here says?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Would you consider for once that sins that have been atoned do not send a person to hell! PERIOD!

I have considered that, and have rejected it as unbiblical based on Scriptural teaching.

The only reason a person is sent to hell is because that person lacks faith in GOD! End of Story!

Assuming that is true (and that Scripture is wrong), lack of faith is disobedience to God's command, and is therefore Sin. If all sin has been paid for, as you claim, then unbelief was paid for and people to do not go to hell for unbelief. If people go to hell for unbelief, then all sin was not paid for.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Do you think you might be able to deal with the two text I gave.

I probably already have, but I am not sure what two texts you are talking about.

Hear what Dabney says on 1 John 2:2

"In 1 Jno.ii.2, it is at least doubtful whether the express phrase, 'whole world', can be restrained to the world of the elect as including others than Jews. For it is indisputable, that the Apostle extends the propitiation of Christ beyond those whom he speaks of as 'we' in verse first" (Systematic Theology, p.525)

Larry, are you willing to listen to what Dabney, a Calvinist, here says?

There are many Calvinists that agree with Dabney and many who don't. I disagree with him for this reason. The parallelism is the text suggests that whatever Christ did for us, he also did for the world. But I am not immovable on that. The most I would say is that 1 John 2:2 is a verse that can go either way.

I believe Christ's death is sufficient for all sins for all time, and in taht sense, that he died for all men without exception. All participate in teh blessings of the atonement to some degree, but not all to a saving degree.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by icthus:
It is evident from Scripture, that those who have been born-again, can end up rejecting Jesus Christ, and lose their salvation. This is no theory, but the plain teaching of the Holy Bible. I am going to refer to a passage from the book of Hebrews, and would like the Calvinists to have some honest answers.

Hebrews 10:28-31

"Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

There are some, who are under the false impression, that shuch warnings in Scripture are nothing more than "hypothetical", and are in fact not warnings at all. This view, I believe this a delusion, and one that the enemy would like us to hold to. The reality is, that this, and other warnings found in Scripture are indeed what they are, and ought to be heeded by all those who claim to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

The identity of those spoken of in the above passage, is clearly of someone who has been born-again by the Holy Spirit...

Well said.

Your points are clear, obvious, to the point and impossible to refute. It is good exegesis to actually "believe" what the text says - and you have done that.

I can only say "amen" to your post.

I would also like to add that Matt 18 (last half of chapter) makes another compelling case in harmony with your excellent highlight of the truths in Hebrews 10.

In Matt 18 we see the lesson of "Forgiveness REVOKED" and it ends with Christ saying "SO shall my Father DO TO EACH OF YOU if you do not forgive your neighbor from your heart".

Notice that the "motivation" for forgiveness in the Matt 18 story is out of GRATITUDE for the full, complete and free forgiveness you have received!

If the slave in MAtt 18 was STILL UNFORGIVEN - then he had no BASIS to forgive others.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Would you consider for once that sins that have been atoned do not send a person to hell! PERIOD!

I have considered that, and have rejected it as unbiblical based on Scriptural teaching.

The only reason a person is sent to hell is because that person lacks faith in GOD! End of Story!

Assuming that is true (and that Scripture is wrong), lack of faith is disobedience to God's command, and is therefore Sin. If all sin has been paid for, as you claim, then unbelief was paid for and people to do not go to hell for unbelief. If people go to hell for unbelief, then all sin was not paid for. </font>[/QUOTE]It only becomes God's command to those who believe in God! It is only when you know that you are violating a command of God that it becomes sin!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Your points are clear, obvious, to the point and impossible to refute.

I have already refuted them with clear exegetical evidence, thus showing that they are not "impossible to refute."

 

[Pastor Larry]

It only becomes God's command to those who believe in God!

Really?? Why would God command someone to do something they are already doing? That doesn't make any sense, Wes. You know that. Come on ...

It is only when you know that you are violating a command of God that it becomes sin!

Scripture teaches no such thing. Sin is sin, whether you know it or not. Sin is defined by lack of conformity to God, not by knowledge.

 

[BobRyan]

BTW - 1 John 2:2 goes perfectly with 1Tim 4:10

10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

In 1 John 2:2 it is "For He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

The emphasis both writers make on the SAVED - the SAINTS - the CHOSEN - the ELECT being INSIDE that larger group "WHOLE WORLD" for whom Christ died - is so obvious, so blatant, so clear, so striking, that it is "impossible to miss".

Those who reject that clear teaching from God's Word, do it "in spite" of these texts NOT "because of them"!!

How much simpler just to trust the Word of God as it reads.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bob,

If you think we to just trust the text as it reads, then do you accept 2 Thess 2:13 where it says that God chose us to salvation from the beginning?

I accept both of texts you mention, and have discussed both of them at length, showing how they fit perfectly with the Bible's teaching that Calvinists believe. There is no conflict there.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Do you punish your children and Grandchildren for doing what you have not told them is wrong?

Neither does God!

 

[Pastor Larry]

If you get pulled over for speeding, you are guilty, whether you know what the speed limit is or not. As they say, Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

The difference is that God has told us what is right and wrong. He gave us his word. There is no doubt but that belief in God and Christ is the obligation of every man. That is why Rom 1 says they are without excuse.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If you get pulled over for speeding, you are guilty, whether you know what the speed limit is or not. As they say, Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

The difference is that God has told us what is right and wrong. He gave us his word. There is no doubt but that belief in God and Christ is the obligation of every man. That is why Rom 1 says they are without excuse.

You don't get a driver's license unless you know the law!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If you get pulled over for speeding, you are guilty, whether you know what the speed limit is or not. As they say, Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

The difference is that God has told us what is right and wrong. He gave us his word. There is no doubt but that belief in God and Christ is the obligation of every man. That is why Rom 1 says they are without excuse.

When did you first become aware of God's law relative to sin?
Was it before you could walk and talk? Or was it after you had developed some communications skills and could actually hear the word of God!

 

[Pastor Larry]

You don't get a driver's license unless you know the law!

Yes, but when you are driving on a road, you might miss a speed limit sign.

When did you first become aware of God's law relative to sin?
Was it before you could walk and talk? Or was it after you had developed some communications skills and could actually hear the word of God!

We are aware of it when we begin to possess understanding. There is no particular time. But even before that, we are still sinners because of being born after the likeness of Adam. Our sinfulness does not depend on our knowledge of it, but rather on its inherent nature as sin.