Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Can you provide solid Bible evidence that clearly shows why those who are not saved, will go into eternal punishment.
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The Holy Bible and The Unsaved
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Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Reasons from the Scriptures, and not simply the verses
Odd - you ask for the Holy Bible and fate of unsaved. Actual verses on eternal punishment (not some theological construct) are given in response (in other words, exactly what is asked for) and now you don't want the Bible?
Have to be clearer, my friend, as to the information you desire.
Have to be clearer, my friend, as to the information you desire.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Is it because the Lord has predestined them to this fate, or is it because they are responsible because of their unbelief, or did the Lord simply leave them to hell, or any other reason?
You will also notice, that in almost every reference that "Gehenna" is used in the NT, it is when addressed to the Disciples, and not the unsaved? Why is this, if believers cannot go to Gehenna, as we know it?
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Eternal Punishment can usually be seen to refer to those who have rejected the means to escape Hell. For example:
Matthew 10:28
King James Version (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Those here who go into Hell are those who do not fear God, which is a basic term used for those who have regard for God and His will for men.
The word "destroy" is the same word used to describe the Israel Christ ministered to:
Matthew 10:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Israel's primary problem was they had turned from God, and came under God's judgment. They are in a state of destruction which is said to be the fate of those who do not fear God in Matthew 10:28. Hell holds the concept of separation from God on an eternal basis, and one of the things we find in Scripture is that God provides means for all men to escape judgment, so that no man will ever be able to say "But...you didn't tell me!"
Israel is a good example of this, because of any people who should have known better, it should have been Israel who knew the consequences of rebellion against God.
My best advice for you, SBG, is to stop letting the errors of certain systems bother you. That they exist doesn't change what the Bible teaches in regards to God's love for all men, and that there are many who embrace these doctrines correlates to the historical principle of the many and the few. Of course more people are going to embrace false doctrines than true, all we need to do is make sure the doctrines we embrace can be supported from Scripture.
God bless.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
So you are really asking about the 'L' in TULIP? Is that right? You'll need to clarify, because both Arminians and Reformed believe in Eternal Damnation.
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Believers before regeneration could certainly go there if their faith changed before death. It was not until after Christ's victory over death that the Apostles were born again, indwelt and sealed until the day of Redemption.
Ever wonder why the Apostles lost faith so easily at our Lord's arrest and Crucifixion? It was because they were clueless as to our Lord's teachings, meanings and purpose here the first time. His death being necessary was spoken of by the Lord to the Apostles often during His ministry but they could not receive it yet. They honestly thought He would start His Kingdom then. Peter denied Him 3 times with cursing and we all know the Lord's teachings on denying Him.
Matthew 18: 1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Luke 22: And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
After our Lord's Resurrection, they were born again of the Spirit:
First His Apostles privately:
John 20:21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Then all believers:
At Pentecost, the remainder were born again and from this point forward the Spirit was poured out over all flesh. As the Word of God spread, so spread the Holy Spirit 's conviction of sin, righteous and judgment to come, with it.
God predestination in the active sense refers to the election of some unto eternal life in Christ, and he bypasses and permits those still lost to have their own way so to speak, as they are sinners whose desire is to keep on rejecting Jesus to save them.
God predestined where the lost go in the end due to the GWT judgement, but He did not "compel/force" them to go there.
Those who hold to Double predestination though would indeed see God actively causing some to get saved, and all the rest damned.
God predestined where the lost go in the end due to the GWT judgement, but He did not "compel/force" them to go there.
Those who hold to Double predestination though would indeed see God actively causing some to get saved, and all the rest damned.
That is Hades, not gehenna, which is the Lake of Fire, not the temporary resting place of the dead.
It is true it was not until Pentecost men received eternal remission of sins, eternal redemption, and eternal union with God, however, the destinies of the Just of the Old Testament were as secure as our own by grace through faith. It didn't really matter if their "faith" changed, because they were not saved by faith through grace, but by grace through faith.
Lot is an example of someone known to be justified, and I wouldn't give you two cents for the man. Anyone who would offer his daughters to be raped to save two people, even if they were Angels (the obvious fact being that Angels can take care of themselves, lol), has some problems.
God bless.
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Thanks brother, Well put.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
John 3:18 NASB pretty much tells “why”:
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Why a person does not believe has been debated for close to 2000 years, so I don’t expect sudden agreement between the two sides. Does the why really matter that much?
John 6:44 and Romans 8:28-30 suggest that God has the issue under control; we just have to Ephesians 2:10.
The lost are in hell due to them being founded guilty in Adam, guilty for their own sins committed, and for willfully rejecting Jesus Christ.
God predestined for them their eternal condition/state in Hell due to those truths!
As usual your understanding is warped.
All Calvinists and many Christians not of the Calvinistic stamp would affirm that God actively causes all of His elect to come to Jesus because the Father gives them to the Son.
However, those who believe in DP do not think that God works on the reprobate in the sense of forcing them to enter Perdition.
Your theology is in need of as much reworking as is your poor and confused thinking about Bible translation.
Would you say that a person not using scripture....has theology, or is it downgraded to philosophy?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
This is Classic Reformed (Calvinist) Double Predestination explained at THEOPEDIA as follows:
"The classic position of Reformed theology views predestination as double in that it involves both election and reprobation but not symmetrical with respect to the mode of divine activity. A strict parallelism of operation is denied. Rather predestination is viewed in terms of a positive-negative relationship.
In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin."
In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin."
This is actually a radical form of Supralapsarianism described in THEOPEDIA as follows:
"The distortion of double predestination suggests a parallelism of foreordination and predestination by means of a positive symmetry, which may be called a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation; and in the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin.
This distortion makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly moves man to do. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as Hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers."
This distortion makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly moves man to do. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as Hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers."
It is hard enough being a Reformed Baptist without people mis-defining what it is that we believe.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You mean like a "Lily and Holly"?There are other types of Baptist which are quite easy to be.
God bless.
Frankly, it was a lot easier when I was an Arminian ... then I started actually reading the Bible for myself and had to change my theology, or quit reading scripture. I came to 4 point Calvinism before I ever heard of 'Calvinism and Arminianism'. I just never gave any thought to whose sins Jesus died for beyond being grateful that he died for mine ... so Limited/Unlimited Atonement was a non-issue for me. To a large extent, it still is ... whose sins Jesus carried to the cross is His business: What does God care what I think about it?
Double predestination Calvinists would indeed hold that God was actively predestining both the elect and Lost to eternal life/death, as he would ordain them to either receiving Jesus or reject Him.
Most Calvinists would see it as i already outlined, that predestination refers to the election of God towards his own, active fashion to save them, and to permit all others to stay in their lost states, he would thus be ordaining the end result of rejecting Jesus!
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