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THE LORD IS…NOT WILLING THAT ANY OF YOU SHOULD PERISH

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Van

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I have not read this four page thread, so my comment is restricted to my understanding of 2 Peter 3:9.

(NASB) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

First the you refers to you born anew believers, but the issue is why is God being patient? Because our job as ambassadors of Christ is to carry out the ministry of reconciliation. Thus the "all" refers to all the lost, which we will reach more of because of God's patience. The claim that "all" refers to "all you Christians" is nonsense, we have already come to repentance. No, it is the lost that God is wishing that they would come to repentance.
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

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SavedByGrace said:
I don't agree with this. Evidence is evidence that speaks for itself
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That is a very simplistic view of "evidence". If you're going to be correcting the words of God based on that "evidence", you adopt a more nuanced understanding. "evidence" is to be weighed:
  1. Some manuscripts are older because they were ignored of believers, thus surviving the wear-and-tear of other manuscripts (think a well-read Bible VS one remaining on the shelf collecting dust). The Sinaiticus was found in St. Catherine's Monastery located at the base of Mt. Sinai. According to some, it was found in a trash can, waiting to be burned! The Vaticanus is so named because it is contained in the Vatican library; it is the sole property of the Vatican. It was discovered on a shelf there in 1481, where it had apparently been forgotten about for centuries! Furthermore, some manuscripts survived longer because the authorities sanctioned them while burning other manuscripts and persecuting certain believers. Government censure is nothing new.
  2. Those two were written on expensive vellum, helping their preservation.
  3. The preoccupation with the age of manuscripts leads to the arbitrary prejudice against readings of locations which did not have favorable climates for preservation. Byzantine manuscripts had the disadvantage of being produced in areas which were not as suitable for manuscript preservation as Egypt.
  4. Manuscripts in Alexandria were corrupt by 200 AD.The oldest New Testament manuscript fragment is P52, which dates to about 125 AD. However, the earliest manuscripts that provide distinguishable readings date to about 200 AD (e.g. P46, P66). These manuscripts come from Egypt and are witnesses of the Alexandrian text-type. However, the antiquity of these manuscripts is no indication of reliability because a prominent church father in Alexandria testified that manuscripts were already corrupt by the third century. Origen, the Alexandrian church father in the early third century, said: "...the differences among the manuscripts [of the Gospels] have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they lengthen or shorten, as they please."
    (Bruce Metzger, The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 3rd ed. (1991), pp. 151-152). Origen is of course speaking of the manuscripts of his location, Alexandria, Egypt. By an Alexandrian Church father's own admission, manuscripts in Alexandria by 200 AD were already corrupt. Irenaeus in the 2nd century, though not in Alexandria, made a similar admission on the state of corruption among New Testament manuscripts. Daniel B. Wallace says, "Revelation was copied less often than any other book of the NT, and yet Irenaeus admits that it was already corrupted—within just a few decades of the writing of the Apocalypse". Better yet, Paul himself tells us that New Testament was being corrupted in his day; so while the "oldest is best" advocate resorts to the analogy of a stream, wherein the water is purer the nearer it is to the source, Pickering wisely comments "This is normally true, no doubt, but what if a sewer pipe empties into the stream a few yards below the spring? Then, the process is reversed - as the polluted water is exposed to the purifying action of the sun and ground, the farther it runs the purer it becomes (unless it passes more pipes). That is what happened to the stream of the New Testament transmission. Very near to the source, by 100 A.D. at least, the pollution started gushing into the pure stream".
  5. Later manuscripts can contain early readings the same way that the NA/UBS text contains early readings. The date of a manuscript does not indicate the date of the parent copies used by the copyist. The NA/UBS text is a "late text", being a product of the 19th and 20th centuries. The NA/UBS text itself is late although its readings are early (agreeing with early uncials and papyri). Thus to accept that the late 19th-20th century NA/UBS text contains early readings, one would have to accept the proposition that late texts can contain early readings. Thus to be open-minded one would have to admit that other late texts (i.e. Byzantine manuscripts) may also contain early readings.
Etc.

Instead of "correcting" the King James Bible because we are uncomfortable with the reading, we should rather learn to use it as it is to prove our doctrine - or simply correct our doctrine. For the record, I agree with you that God desires to save all men without exception. I just don't have to help God out in spelling out his doctrine.
 
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Alan Gross

Alan Gross

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ὑμᾶς — 438 Occ. Greek Concordance: ὑμᾶς (hymas) -- 438 Occurrences

"You" referring to 'the Saved' hundreds of times is 'evidence'.

Matthew 3:11 PPro-A2P
GRK: ἐγὼ μὲν ὑμᾶς βαπτίζω ἐν
INT: I indeed you baptize with

Matthew 3:11 PPro-A2P
GRK: βαστάσαι αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν
INT: to carry he you will baptize with [the]

Matthew 4:19 PPro-A2P
GRK: καὶ ποιήσω ὑμᾶς ἁλιεῖς ἀνθρώπων
INT: and I will make you fishers of men

Matthew 5:11 PPro-A2P
GRK: ὅταν ὀνειδίσωσιν ὑμᾶς καὶ διώξωσιν
INT: when they shall insult you and shall persecute [you]

Matthew 5:44 PPro-A2P
GRK: τῶν διωκόντων ὑμᾶς εὐλογειτε τοὺς
INT: those who persecute you bless those who

Matthew 5:44 Ppro-A2P
GRK: τοὺς καταρωμένους ὑμᾶς καλῶς ποιεῖτε
INT: those who curse you good do

Matthew 5:44 Ppro-A2P
GRK: τοὺς μισοῦντας ὑμᾶς
INT: to those who hate you

etc., etc.
 
robycop3

robycop3

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The KJV contains many goofs & booboos, of course. But that's not the theme of this thread.

God didn't create anyone for the specific purpose of sending them to hell. Remember, hell was created for the devil & his angels, not man, at first.

As for "elect", Joe Biden was not born POTUS-elect; he had to become that by being voted in. When one is saved, Jesus "elects" one; He has the ONLY vote for that. While I agree that God has predestined some for special service to Him, such as Moses, Jeremiah, & John The Baptist, they still had to BELIEVE GOD. However, He spoke to them in no uncertain manner so there'd be no doubt. But most of us must acquire faith by hearing/reading the word of God.
 
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Martin Marprelate

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@SavedByGrace
I have posted on John 6:37 several times over the years, but perhaps it will be helpful if I do so again. Apologies to those who have seen this or something similar before.

'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.......' Here is your particular redemption. The Father has given to the Son a vast crowd of people (Revelation 7:9-12), and these He will redeem; not one of the will be lost (John 6:39; 17:2 etc.), because, as the crowd cries, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb.'.

'........And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. No one who has repented and trusted in Christ for salvation will be turned away or be told, "Salvations not for the likes of you; you're not one of the elect!" Nor will he be told, "I'm sorry, there just isn't enough of the blood of Christ left to save you!" But when they come to heaven they will understand, as you will, that it is because God has loved them with an everlasting love and therefore drawn them with lovingkindness (Jeremiah 31:3).

Because the sad fact is that left to themselves, people don't come to Christ, because they love their sins too much. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19; c.f. Romans 3:10-18; Revelation 9:20-21). If God did not elect some to salvation, no one would be saved.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Luke 22 and the account of the Lord's Supper shows that Judas took the bread and wine and Jesus told all of them present that He was to die for their sins
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Where does it say that in Luke 22? Be specific because I don't see that anywhere in that passage.
 
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Aaron

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SavedByGrace said:
It is very clear that God desires that the whole world, every single person is saved and goes to heaven. And yet Christians like you are so opposed to this wonderful Gospel Truth! You are like Jonah and his response to the Lord
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It wasn't his will that Judas be saved.
 
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Aaron

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SavedByGrace said:
Do you guys read in the Gospels where Jesus could not do any miracles because of unbelief. Does this mean that Jesus is not able to do miracles, or that the unbelief in those around Him caused it
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:Laugh

It says He didn't do many because of their unbelief, not, as you read it, that He couldn't do any.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

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Reformed1689 said:
Where does it say that in Luke 22? Be specific because I don't see that anywhere in that passage.
Click to expand...

Luke 22:20-22
[20]And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
[21]But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.
[22]For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
It wasn't his will that Judas be saved.
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The fact remains that Jesus died for the sins of Judas as Jesus clearly says in Luke

Luke 22:20-22
[20]And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
[21]But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.
[22]For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"
 
A

AustinC

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SavedByGrace said:
The fact remains that Jesus died for the sins of Judas as Jesus clearly says in Luke

Luke 22:20-22
[20]And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
[21]But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.
[22]For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"
Click to expand...
Therefore Judas, by your argument, is redeemed and eternally made holy in Christ. His sins were paid in whole, not in part.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Luke 22:20-22
[20]And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
[21]But behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table.
[22]For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"
Click to expand...
Yeah that doesn't say he died for Judas in any way.
 
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