Then let murderers off free?
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The Lord Jesus Christ and the Death Penalty
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Then let murderers off free?
freeatlast
New Member
It is just a easy to ask why God gave men commandments knowing they couldn't not keep the commandments. They show us our own inability and point us to our need for God. The answer is the same, I suppose, for why God implemented the death penalty in the Old Testament. When Jesus came, He showed us we don't have the wisdom to implement the death penalty. The question isn't whether she deserved the death penalty under the Law, my brother. We all deserve the death penalty.
The requirements for implementing the death penalty are clearly changed by Jesus in John 8. He changes the requirements from "2 or 3 witnesses" to the "one without sin among you".
I notice you didn't address the specific command in I Tim. 1:16 that Christians are to follow the example of our Lord Jesus Christ and show mercy with perfect patience toward the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.
Support for the death penalty is contrary to that very specific command.
peace to youraying:
Here is where doctrine goes wrong. You say God gave us commandments that we cannot keep. That is not true. Show me scripture that teaches we cannot keep them. We can keep them but we choose not to. If a person holds that they cannot keep the commandments then they are not responsible for our sin. If we are defects who cannot preform to the commandments we would not be held accountable any more then a baby would. We can keep them but we volitionally choose not to.
As for the death penalty we can carry it out just like intended and it has never been rescinded as a way to carry out justice.
But the Lord Jesus Christ was made sin for us and His blood shed upon the cross speaks of better things than the blood of Abel and cleanses believers from all iniquity. Moreover Matt 5:22 suggests that we are all guilty of murder in God's eyes, and makes it very difficult for any of us to 'cast the first stone.'Iconoclast said:
Steve
I am not sure I understand your comment. Are you saying that Christ invented the death sentence?
freeatlast
New Member
Then should that not mean that we not have courts and juries and send people to prison as that requires judging?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I don't believe the only 2 options are "kill them" or "let them go".
Life in prison without parole is an appropriate punishment for murderers.
peace to you
raying:
I don't believe the only 2 options are "kill them" or "let them go".
Life in prison without parole is an appropriate punishment for murderers.
peace to you
and what would the punishment be if that convict were to murder someone in prison?
also think: Prison escape, a sentence may be pardoned by a different Governor, some slick lawyer may find some ridiculous loophole...
anybody want to add to this list....
MM.......The blood shed was for those in the covenant of grace....some as you know remain in the first Adam, still guilty ,still condemned.
MM...if that be the case...as sinners ..we can never suggest to others that they should not sin...because we are still capable of sinning????? maybe I am not understanding your intent as well as I should???
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
If we are able to keep them, you should be able to give an example of at least one person in history (other than Jesus Christ) who has kept them.
If it is true that no one other than Jesus has kept the commandments since they were given, then we have a 100% failure rate for those who wish to keep the Law over the past 3500 years or so.
I don't think it is wrong doctrine to conclude that since we have a 100% failure rate over the past 3500 years or so that mankind is unable to keep the Law.
As for scripture to support this doctrine, there are many. May I suggest a study of Galatians, specifically chp. 3. (v.21) "....For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."
Paul specifically says here that the O.T. Law was not able to "impart life". Why is it not able to "impart life"? Is it because the Law is not good enough to "impart life" if we keep it? No. Jesus told the rich young ruler to "keep the commandments" if he wanted to "enter into life". (Matt. 19:17) Therefore, the Law must be good enough to impart life if we keep it.
Since the Law is good enough to impart life if we keep it, and yet Paul tells us under inspiration of Holy Spirit that no law was given that was able to impart life, I think we can conclude the problem is not with the Law but with us. We are not able to keep it, therefore it is not able to impart life to us.
We'll just have to disagree.
peace to you
raying:
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
None of those senerios are mentioned as exceptions to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ in I Tim. 1:16, which I notice you continue to avoid addressing.:smilewinkgrin:
peace to you
raying:
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
First, this is a commandment given to O.T. Israel. We are not O.T. Israel and we are not under the O.T. Law.
Second, I am not concerned about "cleansing the land". I am concerned about following the commands of my Lord Jesus Christ. I Tim. 1:16 is very clear. Jesus gave us an example to follow. We are to show mercy with perfect patience to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.
I disagree. Jesus very clearly changes the requirements for implementing the death penalty in John 8. It is no longer the "2 or 3 witnesses". It is the "one who is without sin among you" that is to implement the death penalty.
Beyond that, support for the death penalty is contrary to the command in I Tim. 1:16.
peace to you
raying:
First - I am not avoiding the issue, I am digesting all the comments - then will come to a conclusion.
At the moment - my belief is that in the NT, the Lord does not require, nor prohibit the death penalty. I am seeking to see if I should change my stand on that. Thank you very much.
Salty
PS - even though "None of those senerios are mentioned as exceptions" I would be interested in your thoughts and response.
What does God say about the execution of innocents. It has become a well known fact that there are people sitting on death row who are innocent. Some have been found and released by DNA testing. There is no doubt that there are others who are innocent who are still on death row. Should executions continue as long even though we know there are innocents awaiting execution?
Is not life without parole a form of execution?
There are many commands in the Old Testament that we ignore. If we insist on continuing executions why not the other commands, say like not wearing cloth of mixed fibers?
canadyjd is correct. Jesus did say "he who is without sin." Which one of us can throw the first stone?
I hold that as long as there may be one innocent on death row there should be no executions.
Just because we can do something does not mean we must do that thing.
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freeatlast
New Member
Do you also hold that as long as there is one innocent person in prison there should be no prisons?
1Timothy 1:16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.
We really need to be careful when we look at the break down and context of a passage. Here the example is to unbelievers not to believers. The example is that God can save anyone regardless of the degree of their sin. It says nothing here about the death penalty and to make such a case is to stretch exegesis beyond its limits.
We really need to be careful when we look at the break down and context of a passage. Here the example is to unbelievers not to believers. The example is that God can save anyone regardless of the degree of their sin. It says nothing here about the death penalty and to make such a case is to stretch exegesis beyond its limits.
freeatlast
New Member
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I don't believe I have said v. 16 says anything directly about the death penalty. It does specifically speak to the attitudes that Christians are to have with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.
It seems clear to me. In v.18, Paul says, "This command I entrust to you Timothy, my son, ...." What command is Paul speaking of? Isn't it the command to follow the example of our Lord Jesus Christ in showing mercy with perfect patience with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul?
The example is perfect patience and mercy. That is an example for believers to follow, in context. We see in chp.2 v.1 Paul says, "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men...."
This is consistent with the command from v.16 to follow the example of our Lord in showing mercy with perfect patience to all men, even murderers like Paul.
The command, therefore, that Christians are to have an attitude of mercy with perfect patience with the worst of sinners can readily be applied to the issue of the death penalty. Support for the death penalty is contrary to that command, IMHO.
peace to you
raying:
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I appreciate your willingness to follow God's Word. I was in the same position some time ago. I supported the death penalty and made the same arguments that those who support the death penalty are making today.
In 2000, Texas executed a woman named Carla Faye Tucker (a pick axe murderer). She was a Christian; by all accounts making a credible profession of faith and living her life accordingly. I remember seeing a couple of T.V. preachers (usual supporters of the death penalty) making the argument that Tucker should be granted clemency because they felt she had made a credible profession of faith.
I thought to myself "Is that the requirement for mercy? If we think they have made a credible profession of faith?" How do we measure "credible"? Do you know how many people on death roll make professions of Christian faith? I suspect it is substantial.
Yet, until Tucker, I saw no calls of mercy from these men for other death roll inmates who made professions of faith. Why the call for mercy, now? Was it because she was white? attractive? Had a pretty good voice and sang gospel songs? What about the 300 lb black man with a IQ of 75 and couldn't sing a lick, and who made a similar profession of faith?
I began to study the issue closely. I saw in Luke 9:55 that Christians should have a different spirit. In John 8, I saw Jesus changing the requirements for implementing the death penalty. In Romans 12, God commands us to never repay evil for evil or seek your own revenge. In I Tim. 1:16 I saw a command to follow the mercy and perfect patience of our Lord Jesus when dealing with the worst of sinners, even sinners like Paul who was a murderer by his own testimony.
My response is that we let our govenment do what is necessary to keep murderers from escaping, murdering in prison, and so on. However, fear that those things might happen cannot persaude me to ignore the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christians should not support the death penalty. It is contrary to the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ, IMHO.
peace to you
raying:
No, that is not the answer.
Innocent people in jail is a travesty of justice, it is a tragedy for the individual and that is very sad. Execution would be the greatest travesty. There is no possibility of freedom for an innocent person who has been executed. As long as there is life there is the possibility of innocence being proven for that innocent individual. Also, unless it is life without parole that innocent person will be released at some point in the future.