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Then that supports predestination and election...


He foreknew them because He planted them...

As Brother KYR stated once...not verbatim....


"I forknow what I will reap from my garden because I planted it."

 

The mean and spiteful post I presented belonged to you, post #5 on this thread, and addressed to Protestant.

1. You have a pathetic view of the God revealed in Scripture and you want to blame it on Calvinists and those who believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign election and Grace as shown in the following post:

2. Incidentally, I have never said that foreknowledge equals predestination. In fact I rarely if ever use the word predestination.

3. I have never said that God is the Author of evil or man's evil deeds because God is not the Author of Evil or man's evil deeds. Scripture tells us that God is the Author and finisher of the faith of those who belong to Him. Believe it or not!. {Hebrews 12:2}

4. If you choose to believe that God decrees evil then do so! You believe what you choose to believe.

5. Unregenerate man is evil because he is a servant of Satan.

 

I presented the logical outcome of what a person must believe if he believes in the "doctrines of Grace."
I don't.
My view of God is a God of love, merciful and kind; one who continues to seek and to save the lost (as he said).

I believe in:
our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.

My view of God, indeed is a very high and majestic view of God, and yet He is my loving Father at the same time.

But I present to you some of the premises of Calvinism, some of them that you declare you believe in, and you have no answer. You simply declare that I am the one that doesn't understand God. That is no answer at all.

Try to answer the questions in the post?
Why is the God that so decreed everything in the past to happen unable to change the present?
Why is the Calvinist unable to believe in a sovereign God omnipotent enough to grant man free will within the confines of his own sovereignty?
Is it true then, that the believer that believes in free will believes in a God that is more powerful and greater than Calvin described?

 

You presented nothing that was logical. You presented your perverted understanding of the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace.

You have never heard me say I believe in Calvinism. You are simply setting up a straw man so you can slime Calvinists and in doing so you make remarks about God that I consider blasphemous. You have never heard me comment on the decrees of God other than in Post #56, "The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism", where I posted the following:

 

No. Your foreknowledge doesn't cause them to grow. You "knew" they would come up. However, not 100% of seeds sprout. You didn't know which ones sprouted and which ones did not. In a typical garden or field of corn there is always a certain percentage of seeds that never sprout. You don't know which ones. The reason why is because you are not omniscient. But God is. He does know ahead of time, but he isn't the cause.

In the Calvinist model foreknowledge is predestination. We see that it is wrong.
You didn't cause anything.
In the Biblical model even the word "foreknowledge" simply means to know ahead of time referring to God's omniscience. He knows ahead of time what man is going to choose, and he has given man that choice. He knows what seeds are going to sprout and which ones are not going to sprout. You don't.

 

DHK takes the literal hermeneutic seriously unless he is reading John 5:28, 29; then he feels free to allegorize, shuffle his feet, anything to avoid the truth.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Joh 5:25-29
(25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

On this passage John MacArthur says:

The MacArthur Bible Commentary

 

MacArthur is wrong just as you are DHK. If I am not mistaken his first edition of his Study Bible ignored John 5:28, 29. The Scripture states that the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;

Now using the literal hermeneutic that most dispensationalists brag about, even though many have broken arms from trying to pat themselves on the back, it is very clear that Jesus Christ is talking about one resurrection.

I would also note that in his book Charismatic Chaos, page 94, John MacArthur writes about the interpretation of Scripture:

Unfortunately MacArthur himself does not consistently follow his own advice

John 5:28, 29 clearly teach a general resurrection and judgment and is certainly not obscure as is the language in Revelation 20!

 

"Hour" or "time" generally speaking. It doesn't necessitate one and one only event.

Christ repeats himself concerning two resurrections.
In another translation:
28 “Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation” (John 5:28-29).
--There is a time coming. He doesn't say when. But he tells what is going to happen.
There will be a resurrection for the just.
There will be a resurrection for the unjust.
Don't worry that time will come. It doesn't necessitate one general resurrection. Furthermore Jesus is speaking to a select group, right there on earth. He is speaking to those self-righteous Pharisees in Jerusalem. It was the Sabbath day and he had been in the Temple just awhile ago if you read the context.
So he doesn't mention those "buried at sea," ["and the sea gave up the dead"], those cremated or burned alive--no tomb, etc. He is speaking in a historic context of the Pharisees. He only mentions tombs and graves, whereas the description John gives in Rev.20:10-15 is all-encompassing.

MacArthur is perfectly consistent, both in commentary and in his book.
Your obscure verses are in John 5 and in Daniel 12:1,2. Here are the only two passages in the Bible: one OT, and one NT that can possibly refer to a general resurrection. All others refer to two resurrections apart from Christ.
Rev.20, and especially the entire chapter of 1Cor.15 as well as many others.
The weight of evidence is solidly against these two obscure passages. The word "obscure" is used because they stand out in the face of all other biblical evidence.
You could use the same John 5 passage to teach salvation is by works:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
--If you do good you will be in the resurrection of life.
If you do bad you will be in the resurrection of the damned.

Does the passage teach the above--salvation by works? Why not? Just as it "seems" to teach one general resurrection it would also appear to teach salvation by works. We know it doesn't because of the abundance of scripture that teaches otherwise. Salvation is by grace through faith. It is not of works. That is not what he was teaching.

 

Thank you...... Amen.

raying:

 

Nonsense! The passage states: the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;

Jesus Christ is speaking of one resurrection, not two. I said in an earlier post:

You are shuffling your feet DHK. In fact you shuffle them so much I am surprised you can keep shoes on your feet.

I said in an earlier post:

You are doing anything to avoid the truth. The above is a perfect example!

NO! MacArthur is not consistent sad to say!

That is pathetic DHK, now you are not shuffling your feet you are grasping at straws and going down for the last time. The passage in John 5 is very clear: You are dissembling to say otherwise.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

False! Absolutely false to say that John 5:28, 29 includes two resurrection or that 1 Corinthians 15 talks about two resurrections other than the resurrection of Jesus Christ!

You could I could not because I understand what Jesus Christ states in John 5:28, 29.

I was correct when I posted the following.

 

(CEV) Don't be surprised! The time will come when all of the dead will hear the voice of the Son of Man,

(ISV) "Don't be amazed at this, because the time is approaching when everyone in their graves will hear the Son of Man's voice

(WNT) Wonder not at this. For a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice and will come forth--

a time is coming

 

ASV: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth

GLT: for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice. And they will come out

NAS95: for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth

NASB: for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth

NIV: for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and come out

NKJV: for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth-

NRSV: for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out

WEB: for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come out

YLT: because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, and they shall come forth

ESV: the hour is coming, in the which all who are in the graves shall hear his voice, and come forth

DHK, I am not familiar with the versions you posted but you are aware that an hour is a period of time. Furthermore the versions you quoted all say the time or a time not times are coming!

So whatever you are attempting to prove is a failure! The truth is that Jesus Christ states unequivocally: the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;. He doesn't stutter at all! You Lose!

 

First, I haven't lost anything.
Second, I am not going to even attempt to prove anything to you about this verse any longer. Others have shown you the same thing as I have. You simply refuse to listen to them or me or anyone.
Third, The truth is not owned by you. You have a right to your opinion, and that is all. You don't own it.
Next, I attempt to demonstrate the truth.

Now having said that, as others have said, the verse does not necessitate a "one general resurrection" interpretation. There is nothing in that passage that absolutely demands that interpretation. It is simply your opinion, and that is all. End of discussion.

 

Others have shown me nothing just like you. John 5:28,29 prove conclusively that using the Dispensational hermeneutic of "Literal Interpretation" there will be a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead. You can shuffle your feet all you want but that does not alter the truth one iota!

You are correct but the TRUTH is owned by Scripture and you are denying Scripture because it shows that your pre-trib-dispensational ideology is false.

Where?

Interpreted literally the passage demands one general resurrection of all the dead! Your problem is you think everyone who disagrees with you is not saved!

 

There is such a thing as soul liberty. I allow your interpretation; you need to allow others theirs.

Again, there is this matter of soul liberty. Why are you on the verge of calling approximately half of the board heretics because they believe differently than you? Is that the Christian way to approach things. Remember the principle of soul liberty. Our spiritual fathers shed blood for that Baptist Distinctive. The fathers of our nation shed blood for the wider application which is freedom in general the freedoms we enjoy in our nation. In many Muslim nations you would have no such freedom at all. There is such a thing as "Christian genocide." And it is on the rise.

You don't own the truth. Have I ever intimated that you are not saved? I believe your interpretation is wrong. I didn't say you are not saved. There is soul liberty. Leave it at that.

 

Coming from you DHK that is :laugh:!