The Many Insurmountable Difficulties of Futurism: 144,000 Jewish Male Virgins

[convicted1]

God would not be God if he didn't.
He is omniscient.

Then that supports predestination and election...


He foreknew them because He planted them...

As Brother KYR stated once...not verbatim....


"I forknow what I will reap from my garden because I planted it."

 

[OldRegular]

Instead of coming back with a spiteful post accumulated with derogatory quotes, why not just answer the post. I trust you are able to do so.

The mean and spiteful post I presented belonged to you, post #5 on this thread, and addressed to Protestant.

OR, you have previously posted that I have (and you have) no free will; that man has no free will. Is this true or false?
You have previously agreed or posted that foreknowledge equals predestination, and therefore all things are decreed from eternity past.

If the above statement is true, then all evil must be decreed as well, and God is the author of evil as well. How can it not be otherwise? Please explain yourself out of this paradigm of yours. At least others are consistent in their logic.

If man has no free will at all, then God is the author of man's evil deeds--yes or no?

1. You have a pathetic view of the God revealed in Scripture and you want to blame it on Calvinists and those who believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign election and Grace as shown in the following post:

Originally Posted by DHK

Okay, God is all sovereign and all powerful.
Does he have the power to intervene and stop all evil?
If you believe as Calvin believed (and as consistent followers such as SBM and Luke 24 do), that God is the author of all evil, then God decreed everything that is happening--all this evil. This is apparent and consistent with your thinking, for you believe I cannot strike even one key in making a post without God making me do it--no free will. God decreed it to be so.

Why would God undo what he has foreordained? The Calvinist believes that God is a prisoner whose hands are tied. He cannot intervene if he could. How could God reverse what He has predestinated? Impossible! He has handcuffed himself. He cannot change His mind or go back on his word. Therefore, if He foreordained evil, He cannot stop it. What an embarrassing position to be in, for an Almighty God!!!!

This question then cannot be left alone. Why would a God of love decree evil and suffering for billions not only in this life but for eternity in the Lake of Fire? And this is supposedly glorifying God?
But God is also handcuffed here. He is powerless, not omnipotent for He cannot change his mind on what he has already decree. For there is no free will.

2. Incidentally, I have never said that foreknowledge equals predestination. In fact I rarely if ever use the word predestination.

3. I have never said that God is the Author of evil or man's evil deeds because God is not the Author of Evil or man's evil deeds. Scripture tells us that God is the Author and finisher of the faith of those who belong to Him. Believe it or not!. {Hebrews 12:2}

4. If you choose to believe that God decrees evil then do so! You believe what you choose to believe.

5. Unregenerate man is evil because he is a servant of Satan.

 

[DHK]

The mean and spiteful post I presented belonged to you, post #5 on this thread, and addressed to Protestant.



1. You have a pathetic view of the God revealed in Scripture and you want to blame it on Calvinists and those who believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign election and Grace as shown in the following post:

​

2. Incidentally, I have never said that foreknowledge equals predestination. In fact I rarely if ever use the word predestination.

3. I have never said that God is the Author of evil or man's evil deeds because God is not the Author of Evil or man's evil deeds. Scripture tells us that God is the Author and finisher of the faith of those who belong to Him. Believe it or not!. {Hebrews 12:2}

4. If you choose to believe that God decrees evil then do so! You believe what you choose to believe.

5. Unregenerate man is evil because he is a servant of Satan.

I presented the logical outcome of what a person must believe if he believes in the "doctrines of Grace."
I don't.
My view of God is a God of love, merciful and kind; one who continues to seek and to save the lost (as he said).

I believe in:
our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.

My view of God, indeed is a very high and majestic view of God, and yet He is my loving Father at the same time.

But I present to you some of the premises of Calvinism, some of them that you declare you believe in, and you have no answer. You simply declare that I am the one that doesn't understand God. That is no answer at all.

Try to answer the questions in the post?
Why is the God that so decreed everything in the past to happen unable to change the present?
Why is the Calvinist unable to believe in a sovereign God omnipotent enough to grant man free will within the confines of his own sovereignty?
Is it true then, that the believer that believes in free will believes in a God that is more powerful and greater than Calvin described?

 

[OldRegular]

I presented the logical outcome of what a person must believe if he believes in the "doctrines of Grace."

You presented nothing that was logical. You presented your perverted understanding of the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace.

I don't.
My view of God is a God of love, merciful and kind; one who continues to seek and to save the lost (as he said).

I believe in:
our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.

My view of God, indeed is a very high and majestic view of God, and yet He is my loving Father at the same time.

But I present to you some of the premises of Calvinism, some of them that you declare you believe in, and you have no answer. You simply declare that I am the one that doesn't understand God. That is no answer at all.

Try to answer the questions in the post?
Why is the God that so decreed everything in the past to happen unable to change the present?
Why is the Calvinist unable to believe in a sovereign God omnipotent enough to grant man free will within the confines of his own sovereignty?
Is it true then, that the believer that believes in free will believes in a God that is more powerful and greater than Calvin described?

You have never heard me say I believe in Calvinism. You are simply setting up a straw man so you can slime Calvinists and in doing so you make remarks about God that I consider blasphemous. You have never heard me comment on the decrees of God other than in Post #56, "The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism", where I posted the following:

Originally Posted by OldRegular
As I said above I believe in the Sovereignty of God, however, I believe that frequently people in discussing that Sovereignty or the Decrees of God go far beyond what Scripture reveals and certainly beyond understanding! Let God be God, if we could understand Him He would not be God. He graciously reveals to us what we need to know!

God through the Apostle Paul tells us: Romans 11:33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[DHK]

Then that supports predestination and election...

He foreknew them because He planted them...

No. Your foreknowledge doesn't cause them to grow. You "knew" they would come up. However, not 100% of seeds sprout. You didn't know which ones sprouted and which ones did not. In a typical garden or field of corn there is always a certain percentage of seeds that never sprout. You don't know which ones. The reason why is because you are not omniscient. But God is. He does know ahead of time, but he isn't the cause.

"I forknow what I will reap from my garden because I planted it."

In the Calvinist model foreknowledge is predestination. We see that it is wrong.
You didn't cause anything.
In the Biblical model even the word "foreknowledge" simply means to know ahead of time referring to God's omniscience. He knows ahead of time what man is going to choose, and he has given man that choice. He knows what seeds are going to sprout and which ones are not going to sprout. You don't.

 

[OldRegular]

I believe in your own mind you are an exegetical genius.:laugh:

Let's take your hermeneutical approach and apply it to the very first vision . You know, the vision that sets the tone for the entire book of Revelation: The appearance of Jesus Christ.

I await your literalist exegesis with fervent anticipation!

DHK takes the literal hermeneutic seriously unless he is reading John 5:28, 29; then he feels free to allegorize, shuffle his feet, anything to avoid the truth.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[DHK]

DHK takes the literal hermeneutic seriously unless he is reading John 5:28, 29; then he feels free to allegorize, shuffle his feet, anything to avoid the truth.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:25-29
(25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

On this passage John MacArthur says:

The theme of these verses is resurrection. Jesus related that all men, saved and unsaved, will be literally and physically resurrected from the dead. However, only the saved experience a spiritual ("born again"), as well as physical, resurrection unto eternal life. The unsaved will be resurrected unto judgment and eternal punishment through separation from God, i.e., the second death (cf. Rev.20:6, 14; 21:8). These verses also constitute proof of the deity of Jesus Christ since the Son has resurrection power (vs.25,26), and the Father has granted Him the status of the Judge of all mankind (vs.27). In the light of other Scripture, it is clear that Jesus speaks generally about resurrection, but not about one, general resurrection. (see notes on Dan.12:2; 1Cor.15:23; 1Thes.4:16).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary

 

[OldRegular]

Joh 5:25-29
(25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

On this passage John MacArthur says:

The theme of these verses is resurrection. Jesus related that all men, saved and unsaved, will be literally and physically resurrected from the dead. However, only the saved experience a spiritual ("born again"), as well as physical, resurrection unto eternal life. The unsaved will be resurrected unto judgment and eternal punishment through separation from God, i.e., the second death (cf. Rev.20:6, 14; 21:8). These verses also constitute proof of the deity of Jesus Christ since the Son has resurrection power (vs.25,26), and the Father has granted Him the status of the Judge of all mankind (vs.27). In the light of other Scripture, it is clear that Jesus speaks generally about resurrection, but not about one, general resurrection. (see notes on Dan.12:2; 1Cor.15:23; 1Thes.4:16).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary

MacArthur is wrong just as you are DHK. If I am not mistaken his first edition of his Study Bible ignored John 5:28, 29. The Scripture states that the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;

Now using the literal hermeneutic that most dispensationalists brag about, even though many have broken arms from trying to pat themselves on the back, it is very clear that Jesus Christ is talking about one resurrection.

I would also note that in his book Charismatic Chaos, page 94, John MacArthur writes about the interpretation of Scripture:

The Reformers used the expression scriptura scripturam interpretatur, or ‘Scripture interprets Scripture.’ By this they meant that obscure passages in Scripture must be understood in light of clearer ones. If the Bible is God's Word, it must be consistent with itself. No part of the Bible can contradict any other part. One divine Author, the Holy Spirit, inspired the whole Bible, so it has one marvelous, supernatural unity. The synthesis principle puts Scripture together with Scripture to arrive at a clear, consistent meaning. If we hold to an interpretation of one passage that does not square with something in another passage, one of the passages is being interpreted incorrectly, or possibly both of them. The Holy Spirit does not disagree with himself. And the passages with obvious meanings should interpret the more arcane ones. One should never build a doctrine on a single obscure or unclear text.

Unfortunately MacArthur himself does not consistently follow his own advice

obscure passages in Scripture must be understood in light of clearer ones.

John 5:28, 29 clearly teach a general resurrection and judgment and is certainly not obscure as is the language in Revelation 20!

 

[DHK]

MacArthur is wrong just as you are DHK. If I am not mistaken his first edition of his Study Bible ignored John 5:28, 29. The Scripture states that the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;

"Hour" or "time" generally speaking. It doesn't necessitate one and one only event.

Now using the literal hermeneutic that most dispensationalists brag about, even though many have broken arms from trying to pat themselves on the back, it is very clear that Jesus Christ is talking about one resurrection.

Christ repeats himself concerning two resurrections.
In another translation:
28 “Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation” (John 5:28-29).
--There is a time coming. He doesn't say when. But he tells what is going to happen.
There will be a resurrection for the just.
There will be a resurrection for the unjust.
Don't worry that time will come. It doesn't necessitate one general resurrection. Furthermore Jesus is speaking to a select group, right there on earth. He is speaking to those self-righteous Pharisees in Jerusalem. It was the Sabbath day and he had been in the Temple just awhile ago if you read the context.
So he doesn't mention those "buried at sea," ["and the sea gave up the dead"], those cremated or burned alive--no tomb, etc. He is speaking in a historic context of the Pharisees. He only mentions tombs and graves, whereas the description John gives in Rev.20:10-15 is all-encompassing.

I would also note that in his book Charismatic Chaos, page 94, John MacArthur writes about the interpretation of Scripture:

Unfortunately MacArthur himself does not consistently follow his own advice John 5:28, 29 clearly teach a general resurrection and judgment and is certainly not obscure as is the language in Revelation 20!

MacArthur is perfectly consistent, both in commentary and in his book.
Your obscure verses are in John 5 and in Daniel 12:1,2. Here are the only two passages in the Bible: one OT, and one NT that can possibly refer to a general resurrection. All others refer to two resurrections apart from Christ.
Rev.20, and especially the entire chapter of 1Cor.15 as well as many others.
The weight of evidence is solidly against these two obscure passages. The word "obscure" is used because they stand out in the face of all other biblical evidence.
You could use the same John 5 passage to teach salvation is by works:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
--If you do good you will be in the resurrection of life.
If you do bad you will be in the resurrection of the damned.

Does the passage teach the above--salvation by works? Why not? Just as it "seems" to teach one general resurrection it would also appear to teach salvation by works. We know it doesn't because of the abundance of scripture that teaches otherwise. Salvation is by grace through faith. It is not of works. That is not what he was teaching.

 

[Getting it Right]

Don't worry that time will come. It doesn't necessitate one general resurrection. Furthermore Jesus is speaking to a select group, right there on earth. He is speaking to those self-righteous Pharisees in Jerusalem. It was the Sabbath day and he had been in the Temple just awhile ago if you read the context.

Thank you...... Amen.

raying:

 

[OldRegular]

"Hour" or "time" generally speaking. It doesn't necessitate one and one only event.

Nonsense! The passage states: the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;

Jesus Christ is speaking of one resurrection, not two. I said in an earlier post:

DHK takes the literal hermeneutic seriously unless he is reading John 5:28, 29; then he feels free to allegorize, shuffle his feet, anything to avoid the truth.

You are shuffling your feet DHK. In fact you shuffle them so much I am surprised you can keep shoes on your feet.

Don't worry that time will come. It doesn't necessitate one general resurrection. Furthermore Jesus is speaking to a select group, right there on earth. He is speaking to those self-righteous Pharisees in Jerusalem. It was the Sabbath day and he had been in the Temple just awhile ago if you read the context.
So he doesn't mention those "buried at sea," ["and the sea gave up the dead"], those cremated or burned alive--no tomb, etc. He is speaking in a historic context of the Pharisees. He only mentions tombs and graves, whereas the description John gives in Rev.20:10-15 is all-encompassing.

I said in an earlier post:

DHK takes the literal hermeneutic seriously unless he is reading John 5:28, 29; then he feels free to allegorize, shuffle his feet, anything to avoid the truth.

You are doing anything to avoid the truth. The above is a perfect example!

MacArthur is perfectly consistent, both in commentary and in his book.

NO! MacArthur is not consistent sad to say!

Your obscure verses are in John 5

That is pathetic DHK, now you are not shuffling your feet you are grasping at straws and going down for the last time. The passage in John 5 is very clear: You are dissembling to say otherwise.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

All others refer to two resurrections apart from Christ. Rev.20, and especially the entire chapter of 1Cor.15 as well as many others.

False! Absolutely false to say that John 5:28, 29 includes two resurrection or that 1 Corinthians 15 talks about two resurrections other than the resurrection of Jesus Christ!

You could use the same John 5 passage to teach salvation is by works:

You could I could not because I understand what Jesus Christ states in John 5:28, 29.

I was correct when I posted the following.

DHK takes the literal hermeneutic seriously unless he is reading John 5:28, 29; then he feels free to allegorize, shuffle his feet, anything to avoid the truth.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[DHK]

Nonsense! The passage states: the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;

(CEV) Don't be surprised! The time will come when all of the dead will hear the voice of the Son of Man,

(ISV) "Don't be amazed at this, because the time is approaching when everyone in their graves will hear the Son of Man's voice

(WNT) Wonder not at this. For a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice and will come forth--

a time is coming

 

[OldRegular]

Nonsense! The passage states: the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;

ASV: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth

GLT: for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice. And they will come out

NAS95: for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth

NASB: for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth

NIV: for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and come out

NKJV: for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth-

NRSV: for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out

WEB: for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come out

YLT: because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, and they shall come forth

ESV: the hour is coming, in the which all who are in the graves shall hear his voice, and come forth

DHK, I am not familiar with the versions you posted but you are aware that an hour is a period of time. Furthermore the versions you quoted all say the time or a time not times are coming!

(CEV) Don't be surprised! The time will come when all of the dead will hear the voice of the Son of Man,

(ISV) "Don't be amazed at this, because the time is approaching when everyone in their graves will hear the Son of Man's voice

(WNT) Wonder not at this. For a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice and will come forth--

a time is coming

So whatever you are attempting to prove is a failure! The truth is that Jesus Christ states unequivocally: the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;. He doesn't stutter at all! You Lose!

 

[DHK]

So whatever you are attempting to prove is a failure! The truth is that Jesus Christ states unequivocally: the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth. He doesn't stutter at all! You Lose!

First, I haven't lost anything.
Second, I am not going to even attempt to prove anything to you about this verse any longer. Others have shown you the same thing as I have. You simply refuse to listen to them or me or anyone.
Third, The truth is not owned by you. You have a right to your opinion, and that is all. You don't own it.
Next, I attempt to demonstrate the truth.

Now having said that, as others have said, the verse does not necessitate a "one general resurrection" interpretation. There is nothing in that passage that absolutely demands that interpretation. It is simply your opinion, and that is all. End of discussion.

 

[OldRegular]

First, I haven't lost anything.
Second, I am not going to even attempt to prove anything to you about this verse any longer. Others have shown you the same thing as I have. You simply refuse to listen to them or me or anyone.

Others have shown me nothing just like you. John 5:28,29 prove conclusively that using the Dispensational hermeneutic of "Literal Interpretation" there will be a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead. You can shuffle your feet all you want but that does not alter the truth one iota!

Third, The truth is not owned by you. You have a right to your opinion, and that is all. You don't own it.

You are correct but the TRUTH is owned by Scripture and you are denying Scripture because it shows that your pre-trib-dispensational ideology is false.

Next, I attempt to demonstrate the truth.

Where?

Now having said that, as others have said, the verse does not necessitate a "one general resurrection" interpretation. There is nothing in that passage that absolutely demands that interpretation. It is simply your opinion, and that is all. End of discussion.

Interpreted literally the passage demands one general resurrection of all the dead! Your problem is you think everyone who disagrees with you is not saved!

 

[DHK]

Others have shown me nothing just like you. John 5:28,29 prove conclusively that using the Dispensational hermeneutic of "Literal Interpretation" there will be a general resurrection and judgment of all the dead. You can shuffle your feet all you want but that does not alter the truth one iota!

There is such a thing as soul liberty. I allow your interpretation; you need to allow others theirs.

You are correct but the TRUTH is owned by Scripture and you are denying Scripture because it shows that your pre-trib-dispensational ideology is false.

Again, there is this matter of soul liberty. Why are you on the verge of calling approximately half of the board heretics because they believe differently than you? Is that the Christian way to approach things. Remember the principle of soul liberty. Our spiritual fathers shed blood for that Baptist Distinctive. The fathers of our nation shed blood for the wider application which is freedom in general the freedoms we enjoy in our nation. In many Muslim nations you would have no such freedom at all. There is such a thing as "Christian genocide." And it is on the rise.

Interpreted literally the passage demands one general resurrection of all the dead! Your problem is you think everyone who disagrees with you is not saved!

You don't own the truth. Have I ever intimated that you are not saved? I believe your interpretation is wrong. I didn't say you are not saved. There is soul liberty. Leave it at that.

 

[OldRegular]

Is that the Christian way to approach things.

Coming from you DHK that is :laugh:!