The Many Insurmountable Difficulties of Futurism: 144,000 Jewish Male Virgins

[OldRegular]

If nothing else, this thread make me grateful that the Lord led me out of the confusion of dispensationalism.

The 144,000 is the church. Not Jewish evangelists, or whatever you want to call them, during the so-called great tribulation.

Great post! You are 100% correct!

 

[DHK]

OK. Glad to see you say that.

Now, that is what he heard right, he was told "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David" but he didn't actually see that.

What does it he see in verse 6? "I saw... a Lamb standing, as if slain." Did he actually see a lamb that, in spite of a deadly wound, was standing in the midst of the throne?

Again, we are not sure what he saw. The names "lion of the tribe of Judah" etc. are more likely to be titles as they are given in prophecy.
The Lamb is given throughout the book of Revelation and even throughout the Bible.
John says in John 1:29, "Behold the Lamb of God...
and in Rev. 6:
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
--The picture of the Lamb is far more prevalent than any other.
What exactly John saw I am not sure.

But the 144,000 is not a heavenly scene. It is an earthly scene and can hardly be compared to what John sees in heaven. Many things in heaven were hard for John to describe for no doubt what he was describing was beyond his vocabulary to describe.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Corinthians 12:4 that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak. (Young's)

Young's translation is more accurate here.
When Paul had a vision of heaven the things he heard could not be uttered because he did not have the ability. It was beyond the human capacity for him to utter such things. It was not that it was not against the law, but rather that it was impossible for the human voice to replicate.
In like manner John didn't have the human vocabulary to describe what he actually saw. Thus with limited vocabulary he describes what he can to us in heavenly scenes.

 

[RLBosley]

Again, we are not sure what he saw.

But is it not safe to say that he did not actually see a mortally wounded lamb?

The names "lion of the tribe of Judah" etc. are more likely to be titles as they are given in prophecy.
The Lamb is given throughout the book of Revelation and even throughout the Bible.
John says in John 1:29, "Behold the Lamb of God...
and in Rev. 6:
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
--The picture of the Lamb is far more prevalent than any other.

Duh.

But the 144,000 is not a heavenly scene. It is an earthly scene and can hardly be compared to what John sees in heaven. Many things in heaven were hard for John to describe for no doubt what he was describing was beyond his vocabulary to describe.

I'm not sure what you mean "earthly scene." It is part of the revelation is it not?

My point is this: In Revelation 5 John hears of the Lion of Judah and he sees something completely different, a slain Lamb. Yet we all understand that both images are used to describe Jesus Christ. They are symbols both pointing to greater spiritual truth in Christ. Same here in Revelation 7. John does not see this group of 144,000, he hears this number and when he looks he actually sees a numberless multitude. Both images - the 144,000 and the numberless multitude - describe the people of God redeemed from the earth by Jesus.

 

[DHK]

But is it not safe to say that he did not actually see a mortally wounded lamb?



Duh.



I'm not sure what you mean "earthly scene." It is part of the revelation is it not?

My point is this: In Revelation 5 John hears of the Lion of Judah and he sees something completely different, a slain Lamb. Yet we all understand that both images are used to describe Jesus Christ. They are symbols both pointing to greater spiritual truth in Christ. Same here in Revelation 7. John does not see this group of 144,000, he hears this number and when he looks he actually sees a numberless multitude. Both images - the 144,000 and the numberless multitude - describe the people of God redeemed from the earth by Jesus.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four messengers, standing upon the four corners of the land, holding the four winds of the land, that the wind may not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree;
--John sees four angels standing on the earth. The place is the earth.

Revelation 7:8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
--On the earth are 12 tribes each having 12 thousand for a total of 144 thousand. It is fairly specific here. It is on the earth. There is no reason to allegorize this. words do have meaning.

9 After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands,
--Now, after verse 8, the scene changes. John's focus is taken from the earth back into heaven. Notice "after these things I saw."
And now there is a great multitude in heaven out of all nations, tribes, peoples...before the Lamb. This more accurately describes the "church."
It stands in contrast to Israel.

 

[OldRegular]

The Church is raptured before the 7-year tribulation period.

The 7-year tribulation period is signified as Daniel’s 70th week.

The Rapture occurs at Rev. 4:1.

The Holy Spirit, still present, is no longer the Restrainer. He denies Himself that power.

The Antichrist, the Man of Sin, comes to world power soon after the Rapture of the Church, the world unaware he is the Antichrist. This occurs at Rev. 6:1.

His 7-year reign ends at Rev. 19:20.

The Antichrist makes a peace covenant with Israel, permitting them to build a third Temple and re-institute animal blood sacrifices. (Dan. 9:27)

The Palestinian Arabs, as well as the entire Arab world, seemingly have no problem with a Jewish Temple desecrating the holy ground upon which their Dome of the Rock sits. The Holy Spirit is not restraining their earnest desire for bloody vengeance. The blessed power to restrain their need for retaliation is found within the Arabs themselves.

The majority of today’s secular Israelites seemingly have no problem with the ongoing slaughter of countless innocent animals which they view as a a grotesque barbarian ritual performed in the name of God. The restraint they show by not crying out vigorously in protest at the inhumane treatment of God's creatures is not due to Holy Spirit influence. For He is no longer the power restraining. Rather the blessed power of restraint comes from within the animal lovers themselves.

In the midst of his 7-year reign the Antichrist enters the Jewish Temple, declares he is God and puts an end to the animal sacrifices. (Dan. 9:27)

The Jews are irate and refuse him worship. The restraint not to worship him is a blessed power found within themselves.

The rest of the gentile world worships him because his astounding miracles prove his deity. They willingly wear his visible mark upon their foreheads as a badge of honor.

Those who refuse his mark are hunted and killed.

Just think! If you had an imagination like LeHaye and were a Darby-pre-trib-dispensationalist you could have written a series of scary books and made a small, perhaps a large, fortune!

 

[OldRegular]

Now that is confusion brother.
It distinctly says that they are Israelites. It numbers the tribes: 12 of them. It gives the number 12,000 from each tribe. How could it be any other way? Of which tribe would you be?

Revelation 14:1-5
1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Am I missing something. Is there a typo in my Bible. I see nothing about Israel or tribes!

Of course DHK if you are talking about the following Scripture which says nothing about Jewish evangelists that is another matter:

Revelation 7:1-8
1. And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Notice however that not all the tribes are mentioned. Dan is missing and Ephraim is missing. Of course Joseph could mean Ephraim but where O' where is Dan? Something strange going on.

The only real connection between the two groups is the number! However, I believe it is correct to say that these people, the 144,000 mentioned in each passage, represent all the redeemed of God, the Church, on earth at any time in history.

 

[DHK]

Revelation 14:1-5
1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Am I missing something. Is there a typo in my Bible. I see nothing about Israel or tribes!

I suppose you are missing something.
I don't remember mentioning anything about Revelation 14.

Of course DHK if you are talking about the following Scripture which says nothing about Jewish evangelists that is another matter:

It would be nice if you would read some of the material in this thread before jumping in with both feet. I never said anything about Jewish evangelists. In fact if you start from the beginning you will find out that I denied they were Jewish evangelists. Why do you assume you think I must fit into the belief system of others that you know of and read in your "dispy books"? Big error!

Revelation 7:1-8
1. And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Notice however that not all the tribes are mentioned. Dan is missing and Ephraim is missing. Of course Joseph could mean Ephraim but where O' where is Dan? Something strange going on.

There are still twelve tribes. That is what God had promised and He keeps his promises. He has the right to choose which ones they will be. You do believe in a sovereign God, don't you? Do you believe in His sovereignty? This would be a good test of it?
It could well be that because Dan led Israel into idolatry by setting up idols in its land that he is being punished. God has his reasoned. That is a possibility; I cannot be dogmatic.

The only real connection between the two groups is the number! However, I believe it is correct to say that these people, the 144,000 mentioned in each passage, represent all the redeemed of God, the Church, on earth at any time in history.

The only passage I mentioned is the 144,000 in the first part of chapter seven. They are identified to be the nation of Israel. That is the only point that has to be made. There is no sense in denying the facts that the Bible makes clear.

 

[convicted1]

DHK,


The 144,000 that will be sealed, does God already know who they are?

 

[DHK]

DHK,


The 144,000 that will be sealed, does God already know who they are?

God would not be God if he didn't.
He is omniscient.

 

[OldRegular]

I suppose you are missing something.
I don't remember mentioning anything about Revelation 14.

The OP was about the 144,000 in Revelation 14 so it is you who missed something, a very insightful OP!

It would be nice if you would read some of the material in this thread before jumping in with both feet. I never said anything about Jewish evangelists. In fact if you start from the beginning you will find out that I denied they were Jewish evangelists. Why do you assume you think I must fit into the belief system of others that you know of and read in your "dispy books"? Big error!

I have never read a book on eschatology by a dispensationalist. I did read a short piece by Herman Hoyt in a compilation of 4 different views in "Meaning of the Millennium" edited by Robert Clouse. Time is valuable DHK. I try not to waste mine.

There are still twelve tribes. That is what God had promised and He keeps his promises. He has the right to choose which ones they will be. You do believe in a sovereign God, don't you? Do you believe in His sovereignty? This would be a good test of it?
It could well be that because Dan led Israel into idolatry by setting up idols in its land that he is being punished. God has his reasoned. That is a possibility; I cannot be dogmatic.

There were twelve tribes!

The only passage I mentioned is the 144,000 in the first part of chapter seven. They are identified to be the nation of Israel. That is the only point that has to be made. There is no sense in denying the facts that the Bible makes clear.

But they are not the nation of Israel. Dan is missing, Ephraim is missing! You must be careful in reading Scripture. It does not always say what you want it to say!

 

[OldRegular]

DHK,


The 144,000 that will be sealed, does God already know who they are?

C1

Ephesians 4:30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Don't you know that God knows and seals all His Elect, Gentile, Jew, whatever beginning, I expect, with the 1st couple! That 144,000 represents the Church at any time in history. You and I are included in that 144,000.

I knew a lovely young girl of Jewish descent who was saved by the Grace of God and married my nephew. She went home to be with the Lord just over 4 years ago leaving a wonderful testimony. She is now among that marvelous throng mentioned in Revelation 7:9-17 shouting praises to God. Don't know whether the women still shout in Old Regular worship services anymore but I can recall when I was growing up hearing them praise God.

 

[DHK]

There were twelve tribes!

But they are not the nation of Israel. Dan is missing, Ephraim is missing! You must be careful in reading Scripture. It does not always say what you want it to say!

I do read carefully. There are 12 tribes; the twelve tribes that God Himself inspired John by the Holy Spirit to record in the Scriptures for our learning and benefit.
If you choose not to believe God's Word, that is up to you.
As I said, this would be a test of God's sovereignty for you. Do you believe God is sovereign? Sovereign enough to keep 12 tribes from the OT throughout all time until Christ comes back again? He is an omnipotent God, but apparently not in your eyes.

 

[OldRegular]

I do read carefully. There are 12 tribes; the twelve tribes that God Himself inspired John by the Holy Spirit to record in the Scriptures for our learning and benefit.
If you choose not to believe God's Word, that is up to you.

I believe God's Word but you totally reject John 5:28, 29 which, interpreted literally, clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment!

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

As I said, this would be a test of God's sovereignty for you. Do you believe God is sovereign? Sovereign enough to keep 12 tribes from the OT throughout all time until Christ comes back again? He is an omnipotent God, but apparently not in your eyes.

I don't believe that the Church for which Jesus Christ died is a failure as dispensationalism teaches. You absolutely do not believe in the Sovereignty of God. You believe the free will of man trumps the Sovereignty of God.

 

[Getting it Right]

Old Reg: I don't believe that the Church for which Jesus Christ died is a failure as dispensationalism teaches.

Where is that taught? By whom?

 

[DHK]

I don't believe that the Church for which Jesus Christ died is a failure as dispensationalism teaches. You absolutely do not believe in the Sovereignty of God. You believe the free will of man trumps the Sovereignty of God.

Okay, God is all sovereign and all powerful.
Does he have the power to intervene and stop all evil?
If you believe as Calvin believed (and as consistent followers such as SBM and Luke 24 do), that God is the author of all evil, then God decreed everything that is happening--all this evil. This is apparent and consistent with your thinking, for you believe I cannot strike even one key in making a post without God making me do it--no free will. God decreed it to be so.

Why would God undo what he has foreordained? The Calvinist believes that God is a prisoner whose hands are tied. He cannot intervene if he could. How could God reverse what He has predestinated? Impossible! He has handcuffed himself. He cannot change His mind or go back on his word. Therefore, if He foreordained evil, He cannot stop it. What an embarrassing position to be in, for an Almighty God!!!!

This question then cannot be left alone. Why would a God of love decree evil and suffering for billions not only in this life but for eternity in the Lake of Fire? And this is supposedly glorifying God?
But God is also handcuffed here. He is powerless, not omnipotent for He cannot change his mind on what he has already decree. For there is no free will.

There is a biblical answer:
God within the bounds of his sovereignty has given man a free will, for man is made in the image of God.. Man has a genuine moral responsibility to God.
Why?
Because God put it into him.
It is in his nature.
God's law is written in his heart.
If he breaks God's law his conscience bothers him.
One of the first things he does is to start accusing others and excusing himself. (Rom.2:14,15).
--Indeed, he has a free will.

 

[OldRegular]

Where is that taught? By whom?

From:http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/short-history-of-dispensationalism

Darby's view of the church was crucial to his development of dispensationalism, especially his view (shared by many in his day) of the present ruin of the church.

From: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf

No doubt both held to the apostasy of the church, but even this similarity reflects a great chasm of differences between the Albury historicist view and that of the futurist. The Albury view of apostasy was because the church had just finished the 1260 days, which are really 1260 years that ended with the defeat of Antichrist (i.e., Roman Catholicism) in 1789 via the French Revolution. These events forewarned the soon rise of the whore of Babylon (Rev. 17—18), which is the apostate church. On the other hand, Darby and his futurism held that the apostasy of the church was predicted primarily in the New Testament Epistles and would increasingly characterize the end of the current church age, which is totally different than what will take place after the rapture during the tribulation. Albury historicism saw apostasy as a harbinger of the second coming of Christ to the earth, while Darby saw the ruin of the church as a characteristic that precedes an imminent rapture of the church followed by the events of the seven-year tribulation.

 

[OldRegular]

Okay, God is all sovereign and all powerful.
Does he have the power to intervene and stop all evil?
If you believe as Calvin believed (and as consistent followers such as SBM and Luke 24 do), that God is the author of all evil, then God decreed everything that is happening--all this evil. This is apparent and consistent with your thinking, for you believe I cannot strike even one key in making a post without God making me do it--no free will. God decreed it to be so.

DHK, if I compared Darby's-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalism to the Watchtower Society {Jehovah's Witnesses} or the Mormons since all three, along with SDA and Christian Scientism came out of the 19th century, you would be highly offended.

For you to say that I believe God is the author of evil is a LIE and I find it highly offensive. For you to compare me to SBM is highly offensive. But frankly you abuse your position as moderator to get downright mean towards those who oppose the errors of Darby's-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalism. I present the following as evidence, your post #5 on this thread:

You are a skeptic. Did you know unbelief is sin?

A mischaracterization; a falsehood due to a lack of knowledge of futurism.

1. Jews will not be "Billy Grahams." Another uninformed mischaracterization.
2. There is no description of these 144,000 evangelizing the world. Another uninformed mischaracterization. Find out what the futurist believes.

What will be accomplished in 3 1/2 years. You don't know what you are talking about.

Read a book on hermeneutics. It would do you a world of good. Proper hermeneutics (principles by which we understand the Bible) demands that we interpret the Bible literally unless context states otherwise. Allegorical interpretation is to be avoided. This isn't a rule of futurists. This is what is found in most hermeneutical texts no matter what their eschatological outlook may be.

You have a dirty mind. [FONT=&quot]
Like Lot, It has been vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:[/FONT] (2Pet.2:7).

Who said they were 12 years old.

Your mind--dirty and depraved.

Read the chapter. 12 tribes of 12,000 each makes 144,000.

You demonstrate a lack of faith and unbelief.

So, God is too weak to keep His Word? This is your conclusion?
Perhaps He is too weak to keep your salvation as well??
What else would you like to question?

Do you not even read the Bible anymore? Where does it say they become evangelists? Chapter and verse please!
It took the Apostles some 3 ½ years to prepare for their missionary work.

You are uninformed and falsely misrepresent the position of the futurists.
Being ignorant is one thing. Lying out of ignorance is another.

More uninformed ignorance from a fool that doesn't know his Bible.
If you are going to represent someone's position then learn it first.

Your silly imagination, but not what the Bible teaches. You need to study the Bible, not your imagination.

I have taken the liberty to bold certain severely disgusting parts.

 

[Getting it Right]

From:http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/short-history-of-dispensationalism




From: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf

Thanks very much for sharing those links. I'll study them further tomorrow. Long day, including some sad family news .... I'm going to bed early. :sleeping_2:

:wavey:

 

[DHK]

DHK, if I compared Darby's-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalism to the Watchtower Society {Jehovah's Witnesses} or the Mormons since all three, along with SDA and Christian Scientism came out of the 19th century, you would be highly offended.

For you to say that I believe God is the author of evil is a LIE and I find it highly offensive. For you to compare me to SBM is highly offensive. But frankly you abuse your position as moderator to get downright mean towards those who oppose the errors of Darby's-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalism. I present the following as evidence, your post #5 on this thread:

I have taken the liberty to bold certain severely disgusting parts.

OR, you have previously posted that I have (and you have) no free will; that man has no free will. Is this true or false?
You have previously agreed or posted that foreknowledge equals predestination, and therefore all things are decreed from eternity past.

If the above statement is true, then all evil must be decreed as well, and God is the author of evil as well. How can it not be otherwise? Please explain yourself out of this paradigm of yours. At least others are consistent in their logic.

If man has no free will at all, then God is the author of man's evil deeds--yes or no?

 

[DHK]

Okay, God is all sovereign and all powerful.
Does he have the power to intervene and stop all evil?
If you believe as Calvin believed (and as consistent followers such as SBM and Luke 24 do), that God is the author of all evil, then God decreed everything that is happening--all this evil. This is apparent and consistent with your thinking, for you believe I cannot strike even one key in making a post without God making me do it--no free will. God decreed it to be so.

Why would God undo what he has foreordained? The Calvinist believes that God is a prisoner whose hands are tied. He cannot intervene if he could. How could God reverse what He has predestinated? Impossible! He has handcuffed himself. He cannot change His mind or go back on his word. Therefore, if He foreordained evil, He cannot stop it. What an embarrassing position to be in, for an Almighty God!!!!

This question then cannot be left alone. Why would a God of love decree evil and suffering for billions not only in this life but for eternity in the Lake of Fire? And this is supposedly glorifying God?
But God is also handcuffed here. He is powerless, not omnipotent for He cannot change his mind on what he has already decree. For there is no free will.

There is a biblical answer:
God within the bounds of his sovereignty has given man a free will, for man is made in the image of God.. Man has a genuine moral responsibility to God.
Why?
Because God put it into him.
It is in his nature.
God's law is written in his heart.
If he breaks God's law his conscience bothers him.
One of the first things he does is to start accusing others and excusing himself. (Rom.2:14,15).
--Indeed, he has a free will.

Instead of coming back with a spiteful post accumulated with derogatory quotes, why not just answer the post. I trust you are able to do so.