Featured The Many Insurmountable Difficulties of Futurism: 144,000 Jewish Male Virgins

Great post! You are 100% correct!

 

Again, we are not sure what he saw. The names "lion of the tribe of Judah" etc. are more likely to be titles as they are given in prophecy.
The Lamb is given throughout the book of Revelation and even throughout the Bible.
John says in John 1:29, "Behold the Lamb of God...
and in Rev. 6:
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
--The picture of the Lamb is far more prevalent than any other.
What exactly John saw I am not sure.

But the 144,000 is not a heavenly scene. It is an earthly scene and can hardly be compared to what John sees in heaven. Many things in heaven were hard for John to describe for no doubt what he was describing was beyond his vocabulary to describe.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Corinthians 12:4 that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak. (Young's)

Young's translation is more accurate here.
When Paul had a vision of heaven the things he heard could not be uttered because he did not have the ability. It was beyond the human capacity for him to utter such things. It was not that it was not against the law, but rather that it was impossible for the human voice to replicate.
In like manner John didn't have the human vocabulary to describe what he actually saw. Thus with limited vocabulary he describes what he can to us in heavenly scenes.

 

But is it not safe to say that he did not actually see a mortally wounded lamb?

Duh.

I'm not sure what you mean "earthly scene." It is part of the revelation is it not?

My point is this: In Revelation 5 John hears of the Lion of Judah and he sees something completely different, a slain Lamb. Yet we all understand that both images are used to describe Jesus Christ. They are symbols both pointing to greater spiritual truth in Christ. Same here in Revelation 7. John does not see this group of 144,000, he hears this number and when he looks he actually sees a numberless multitude. Both images - the 144,000 and the numberless multitude - describe the people of God redeemed from the earth by Jesus.

 

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four messengers, standing upon the four corners of the land, holding the four winds of the land, that the wind may not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree;
--John sees four angels standing on the earth. The place is the earth.

Revelation 7:8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
--On the earth are 12 tribes each having 12 thousand for a total of 144 thousand. It is fairly specific here. It is on the earth. There is no reason to allegorize this. words do have meaning.

9 After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands,
--Now, after verse 8, the scene changes. John's focus is taken from the earth back into heaven. Notice "after these things I saw."
And now there is a great multitude in heaven out of all nations, tribes, peoples...before the Lamb. This more accurately describes the "church."
It stands in contrast to Israel.

 

Just think! If you had an imagination like LeHaye and were a Darby-pre-trib-dispensationalist you could have written a series of scary books and made a small, perhaps a large, fortune!

 

Revelation 14:1-5
1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Am I missing something. Is there a typo in my Bible. I see nothing about Israel or tribes!

Of course DHK if you are talking about the following Scripture which says nothing about Jewish evangelists that is another matter:

Revelation 7:1-8
1. And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Notice however that not all the tribes are mentioned. Dan is missing and Ephraim is missing. Of course Joseph could mean Ephraim but where O' where is Dan? Something strange going on.

The only real connection between the two groups is the number! However, I believe it is correct to say that these people, the 144,000 mentioned in each passage, represent all the redeemed of God, the Church, on earth at any time in history.

 

I suppose you are missing something.
I don't remember mentioning anything about Revelation 14.

It would be nice if you would read some of the material in this thread before jumping in with both feet. I never said anything about Jewish evangelists. In fact if you start from the beginning you will find out that I denied they were Jewish evangelists. Why do you assume you think I must fit into the belief system of others that you know of and read in your "dispy books"? Big error!

There are still twelve tribes. That is what God had promised and He keeps his promises. He has the right to choose which ones they will be. You do believe in a sovereign God, don't you? Do you believe in His sovereignty? This would be a good test of it?
It could well be that because Dan led Israel into idolatry by setting up idols in its land that he is being punished. God has his reasoned. That is a possibility; I cannot be dogmatic.

The only passage I mentioned is the 144,000 in the first part of chapter seven. They are identified to be the nation of Israel. That is the only point that has to be made. There is no sense in denying the facts that the Bible makes clear.

 

DHK,


The 144,000 that will be sealed, does God already know who they are?

 

God would not be God if he didn't.
He is omniscient.

 

The OP was about the 144,000 in Revelation 14 so it is you who missed something, a very insightful OP!

I have never read a book on eschatology by a dispensationalist. I did read a short piece by Herman Hoyt in a compilation of 4 different views in "Meaning of the Millennium" edited by Robert Clouse. Time is valuable DHK. I try not to waste mine.

There were twelve tribes!

But they are not the nation of Israel. Dan is missing, Ephraim is missing! You must be careful in reading Scripture. It does not always say what you want it to say!

 

C1

Ephesians 4:30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Don't you know that God knows and seals all His Elect, Gentile, Jew, whatever beginning, I expect, with the 1st couple! That 144,000 represents the Church at any time in history. You and I are included in that 144,000.

I knew a lovely young girl of Jewish descent who was saved by the Grace of God and married my nephew. She went home to be with the Lord just over 4 years ago leaving a wonderful testimony. She is now among that marvelous throng mentioned in Revelation 7:9-17 shouting praises to God. Don't know whether the women still shout in Old Regular worship services anymore but I can recall when I was growing up hearing them praise God.

 

I do read carefully. There are 12 tribes; the twelve tribes that God Himself inspired John by the Holy Spirit to record in the Scriptures for our learning and benefit.
If you choose not to believe God's Word, that is up to you.
As I said, this would be a test of God's sovereignty for you. Do you believe God is sovereign? Sovereign enough to keep 12 tribes from the OT throughout all time until Christ comes back again? He is an omnipotent God, but apparently not in your eyes.

 

I believe God's Word but you totally reject John 5:28, 29 which, interpreted literally, clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment!

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I don't believe that the Church for which Jesus Christ died is a failure as dispensationalism teaches. You absolutely do not believe in the Sovereignty of God. You believe the free will of man trumps the Sovereignty of God.

 

Where is that taught? By whom?

 

Okay, God is all sovereign and all powerful.
Does he have the power to intervene and stop all evil?
If you believe as Calvin believed (and as consistent followers such as SBM and Luke 24 do), that God is the author of all evil, then God decreed everything that is happening--all this evil. This is apparent and consistent with your thinking, for you believe I cannot strike even one key in making a post without God making me do it--no free will. God decreed it to be so.

Why would God undo what he has foreordained? The Calvinist believes that God is a prisoner whose hands are tied. He cannot intervene if he could. How could God reverse what He has predestinated? Impossible! He has handcuffed himself. He cannot change His mind or go back on his word. Therefore, if He foreordained evil, He cannot stop it. What an embarrassing position to be in, for an Almighty God!!!!

This question then cannot be left alone. Why would a God of love decree evil and suffering for billions not only in this life but for eternity in the Lake of Fire? And this is supposedly glorifying God?
But God is also handcuffed here. He is powerless, not omnipotent for He cannot change his mind on what he has already decree. For there is no free will.

There is a biblical answer:
God within the bounds of his sovereignty has given man a free will, for man is made in the image of God.. Man has a genuine moral responsibility to God.
Why?
Because God put it into him.
It is in his nature.
God's law is written in his heart.
If he breaks God's law his conscience bothers him.
One of the first things he does is to start accusing others and excusing himself. (Rom.2:14,15).
--Indeed, he has a free will.

 

From:http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/short-history-of-dispensationalism

From: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf

 

DHK, if I compared Darby's-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalism to the Watchtower Society {Jehovah's Witnesses} or the Mormons since all three, along with SDA and Christian Scientism came out of the 19th century, you would be highly offended.

For you to say that I believe God is the author of evil is a LIE and I find it highly offensive. For you to compare me to SBM is highly offensive. But frankly you abuse your position as moderator to get downright mean towards those who oppose the errors of Darby's-pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalism. I present the following as evidence, your post #5 on this thread:

I have taken the liberty to bold certain severely disgusting parts.

 

Thanks very much for sharing those links. I'll study them further tomorrow. Long day, including some sad family news .... I'm going to bed early. :sleeping_2:

:wavey:

 

OR, you have previously posted that I have (and you have) no free will; that man has no free will. Is this true or false?
You have previously agreed or posted that foreknowledge equals predestination, and therefore all things are decreed from eternity past.

If the above statement is true, then all evil must be decreed as well, and God is the author of evil as well. How can it not be otherwise? Please explain yourself out of this paradigm of yours. At least others are consistent in their logic.

If man has no free will at all, then God is the author of man's evil deeds--yes or no?

 

Instead of coming back with a spiteful post accumulated with derogatory quotes, why not just answer the post. I trust you are able to do so.