The Meaning of 'World' in John 3:16

[utilyan]

In a strange way I've got to admire you. You just write a load of old rubbish and post it up here and accuse people of all sorts of things. You should be in politics. If you say anything confidently enough, someone will believe you.

Yes indeed! But the sad fact is that people don't do it. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). The gates of heaven are wide open today, and anyone who wills may enter (eg. Revelation 22:17), but no one will unless God takes them by the scruff of the neck and hauls them through. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (John 5:40).

Jesus is telling you the condemnation itself. "this is the condemnation"

Its not Christ's condemnation: 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus is not making an accusation or condemnation. Jesus is also neither saying this is the way the world is.

He is pointing out YOUR PROBLEM MARTIN.

'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil'

This is YOUR CONDEMNATION, The hell you put yourself though.

You believe you are in a world were "that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil'


Judgment has a way flipping back tenfold on top of you when you make accusations. They don't call the devil ACCUSER for nothing.


18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Grab two people. The name of the only begotten son of God is "GOD SAVES".

The one who doesn't believe God saves says to himself "men loved darkness rather than light" Why? Because their deeds were evil.

There is no forgiveness, he doesn't believe they reach for God.

14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

A Good person is Kind and Loving. No matter what you do Martin he believes deep down you love God that is you love light more then darkness.

He doesn't say YOU are evil because your deeds are evil. He prays for you and has high hopes for you, because his GOD SAVES. The opposite of hopelessness.

He is not under that condemnation.

You can spit in this guys face, and he doesn't get angry. You can steal his shirt and the next day he shows up with a jacket and better shirts for you.

I want 5$ he gives me 10$. A bus could hit you and he would throw himself in your place and not just say, but actually believe you are worth it.

You could have been a murderer, sinner of the worst kind, the bottom of the bottom and he would have still done it.

He knows God is such a good thing really and loves God so much, he can't even conceive the notion that you would prefer anything else. Forgive them father for they know not what they do.

 

[JonC]

John 3:16 says that God loved the world by sending his Son that all who believe would have eternal life. That was how God loved the world – he sent his Son that all who believed would live. It doesn’t matter if “world” means, as John Calvin insisted, “all men without exception” (which it does) or if it means “all classes” (which it doesn’t, we are at a time when Christ’s ministry was to the Jews first). The verse doesn’t say the world will be saved, but that God loved the world by sending his Son that all who believed would be saved. Personally, I believe that defining “world” to mean “all kinds” is eisegesis resulting from theological predispositions as it is impossible to derive that meaning out of the text alone. Jesus is the Savior of all people (without exception), but especially of those who believe.

 

[MB]

Well it exactly isn't, is it? It is the limiting factor. God's love towards the world is shown in this way, that He gave His only begotten Son, not for the world (however you may wish to interpret that), but for the whosoevers.

Christ died for the whole world. If He hadn't then there wouldn't be any "who so ever" not you or me. The really gracious thing about it is, Salvation is offered to "who so ever" believes, to anyone and not necessarily, a particular few..

Nothing at all. I am one of the whosoevers. 'But by the grace of God I am what I am' (1 Corinthians 15:10). Nothing of me; all of Him (Ephesians 1:3-6).

Who ever is saved must also be willing. The jailer was willing because he asked what he should do to be saved.
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Don't you think he believed? Do you think he had to find out if he were chosen first? No! He realized He must believe. This was clearly a decision he had to make himself.
MB

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Christ died for the whole world. If He hadn't then there wouldn't be any "who so ever" not you or me.

That is a non sequitur. Moreover, however you choose to interpret 'world' in John 3:16, the text does not say that Christ died for it.

The really gracious thing about it is, Salvation is offered to "who so ever" believes, to anyone and not necessarily, a particular few.

Here I agree absolutely. Your problem is that you are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hypercalvin. The gates of heaven are wide open. Whosoever wills may enter. But the sad fact is that people will not enter unless God gives them new birth (John 3:3-5). This is not because God keeps them out against their will but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. I keep quoting John 3:19 and John 5:40 in the hope that people will read them but it seems that no one does.

Who ever is saved must also be willing. The jailer was willing because he asked what he should do to be saved.
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Don't you think he believed? Do you think he had to find out if he were chosen first? No! He realized He must believe. This was clearly a decision he had to make himself.
MB

Of course whoever is saved must be willing! But it is God who makes them willing! 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power' (Psalm 110:2). Of course they must believe, of course they make a decision, but it is God who gives them faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[Yeshua1]

That is a non sequitur. Moreover, however you choose to interpret 'world' in John 3:16, the text does not say that Christ died for it.

Here I agree absolutely. Your problem is that you are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hypercalvin. The gates of heaven are wide open. Whosoever wills may enter. But the sad fact is that people will not enter unless God gives them new birth (John 3:3-5). This is not because God keeps them out against their will but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. I keep quoting John 3:19 and John 5:40 in the hope that people will read them but it seems that no one does.

Of course whoever is saved must be willing! But it is God who makes them willing! 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power' (Psalm 110:2). Of course they must believe, of course they make a decision, but it is God who gives them faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

God makes a real offer to all people to believe in the good news and turn to Jesus and get saved, but the wicked and lost choose to remain in their darkness, while the Elect will choose to come into the light.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus is telling you the condemnation itself. "this is the condemnation"

Its not Christ's condemnation: 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus is not making an accusation or condemnation. Jesus is also neither saying this is the way the world is.

He is pointing out YOUR PROBLEM MARTIN.

'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil'

This is YOUR CONDEMNATION, The hell you put yourself though.

You believe you are in a world were "that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil'


Judgment has a way flipping back tenfold on top of you when you make accusations. They don't call the devil ACCUSER for nothing.


18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Grab two people. The name of the only begotten son of God is "GOD SAVES".

The one who doesn't believe God saves says to himself "men loved darkness rather than light" Why? Because their deeds were evil.

There is no forgiveness, he doesn't believe they reach for God.

14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

A Good person is Kind and Loving. No matter what you do Martin he believes deep down you love God that is you love light more then darkness.

He doesn't say YOU are evil because your deeds are evil. He prays for you and has high hopes for you, because his GOD SAVES. The opposite of hopelessness.

He is not under that condemnation.

You can spit in this guys face, and he doesn't get angry. You can steal his shirt and the next day he shows up with a jacket and better shirts for you.

I want 5$ he gives me 10$. A bus could hit you and he would throw himself in your place and not just say, but actually believe you are worth it.

You could have been a murderer, sinner of the worst kind, the bottom of the bottom and he would have still done it.

He knows God is such a good thing really and loves God so much, he can't even conceive the notion that you would prefer anything else. Forgive them father for they know not what they do.

You CANNOT push Love of God as His only attribute though, as His holiness and Sovergn wats are just as important!

So in your theology, how and when does a sinner get saved then?

 

[MB]

That is a non sequitur. Moreover, however you choose to interpret 'world' in John 3:16, the text does not say that Christ died for it.

Actually Pink reinterpreted the word "world" and you accepted his word for it because it fits your theology.

Here I agree absolutely. Your problem is that you are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hypercalvin. The gates of heaven are wide open. Whosoever wills may enter. But the sad fact is that people will not enter unless God gives them new birth (John 3:3-5). This is not because God keeps them out against their will but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. I keep quoting John 3:19 and John 5:40 in the hope that people will read them but it seems that no one does.

Salvation is offered to the whole world, this is why we are told by Christ to preach the gospel to every living creature. Our Lord and Savior wasn't being foolish when He told His disciples this, He was as serious as He could be. As far election is concerned No one has ever shown even one Gentile that was called elect in the Bible. The only elect in my view are the Jews, And they still are the only elect in scripture.

Of course whoever is saved must be willing! But it is God who makes them willing! 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power' (Psalm 110:2). Of course they must believe, of course they make a decision, but it is God who gives them faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

've read both Jn, 3:19 and 5:40. The Light spoken of is the Light of the knowledge of Christ. Jn 5:40 is Christ speaking with Jews who rejected Him. It is a fact the Jews did not believe He is the messiah.

I will agree that it is God's Holy Spirit and His word that convicts men and women of there sins and brings them to Christ. As far as being chosen for Salvation. John 3:16 tells us all who has been chosen for Salvation "the whole world." Everyone. Those who are not saved are those who rejects Jesus and His Word. As did the Jews in Jn 5:30 -47
MB

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Actually Pink reinterpreted the word "world" and you accepted his word for it because it fits your theology.

Reinterpreted the word? Since when does 'world' mean 'all the people in the world'? Pink's words are on the O.P. If you are trying to refute them you're not doing a very good job.

Salvation is offered to the whole world, this is why we are told by Christ to preach the gospel to every living creature. Our Lord and Savior wasn't being foolish when He told His disciples this, He was as serious as He could be.

Again, no Calvinist will disagree with that. Look, here's John 6:37.
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.........' Here is Particular Redemption and Irresistible calling. The Father has given the Son a people to redeem and He will do the job. Not one of them will be lost (see verse 39). "..........and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." And here is the offer to the whole world. Whoever wills may enter; no matter how wicked or vile, let them repent and trust in Christ for salvation and He will not cast them out. But when they finally arrive in heaven they will find out that God the Father has loved them from eternity, given them to the Son to redeem at measureless cost, and drawn them irresistibly to Himself (Jeremiah 31:3).

As far election is concerned No one has ever shown even one Gentile that was called elect in the Bible.

Gosh! That means I must be the first! Acts 13:48. 'Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.' Do you see? 'It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but God who shows mercy' (Romans 9:16).

The only elect in my view are the Jews, And they still are the only elect in scripture.

Romans 9:8. 'Those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed' (cf. Matthew 8:11-12; Matthew 21:43; Galatians 3:7, 26-29).

As far as being chosen for Salvation. John 3:16 tells us all who has been chosen for Salvation "the whole world." Everyone. Those who are not saved are those who rejects Jesus and His Word. As did the Jews in Jn 5:30 -47
MB

John 3:16 tells us nothing of the sort. I note that you have put "the whole world" in quotation marks as if it were in the text, but of course it isn't. Nor, come to that, is the word "chosen." The verse tells us for whom God gave the Son, and it wasn't for the world, it was for the 'whosoevers.'

 

[JonC]

Actually Pink reinterpreted the word "world" and you accepted his word for it because it fits your theology.


Salvation is offered to the whole world, this is why we are told by Christ to preach the gospel to every living creature. Our Lord and Savior wasn't being foolish when He told His disciples this, He was as serious as He could be. As far election is concerned No one has ever shown even one Gentile that was called elect in the Bible. The only elect in my view are the Jews, And they still are the only elect in scripture.


've read both Jn, 3:19 and 5:40. The Light spoken of is the Light of the knowledge of Christ. Jn 5:40 is Christ speaking with Jews who rejected Him. It is a fact the Jews did not believe He is the messiah.

I will agree that it is God's Holy Spirit and His word that convicts men and women of there sins and brings them to Christ. As far as being chosen for Salvation. John 3:16 tells us all who has been chosen for Salvation "the whole world." Everyone. Those who are not saved are those who rejects Jesus and His Word. As did the Jews in Jn 5:30 -47
MB

Hey MB,

I agree with you that the word “world” in John 3:16 means all mankind (Christ is, after all, the Savior of all people, especially those who believe...I do not see that this would be excluded in God loving the world). But I am not sure how you justify the comment that “the elect” are the Jews. There are at least two (two that I can think of, anyway) passages where the word “elect” (ἐκλεκτός) is used to speak of Christians (both Jew and Gentile believers).

In Romans 8:326-39 Paul speaks of the victory that we have in Christ. He speaks of the Spirit helping our weakness and offers the comfort that “God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Those God foreknew, predestined, and called are those who God justified and glorified. Verses 26 and 31 indicate that Paul is connecting these people with the audience (the saints for whom the Spirit intercedes…. the “us” of the passage. This is not Israel that Paul is speaking of, but the Christians in Rome (both Jew and Gentile believers). More broadly, I believe it was not just the Christians in Rome but believers everywhere that are to associate with this passage. This “calling” and “predestination” of the foreknown group of Jews and Gentiles is what many would refer to as “the elect”.

In Romans 8:33 Paul asks who will bring a charge against God’s elect (ἐκλεκτός). Again, this group – the elect – correspond to this “us” for whom Christ intercedes. This group (the elect) are those who will not be separated “from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (v 39).

If we look at 2 Timothy 2:10 we see Paul encouraging Christians to endure. Those who died with Christ will also live with Him. Paul says to remember Christ risen from the dead because that is the reason he suffers hardship. He endures all things for the sake of those who are chosen (ἐκλεκτός). Again, Paul is referring not to Israel but to Christians as God’s elect.

And these are just two places where Paul uses the word “elect” to refer to not Jews or Israel but Christians. Beyond this the doctrine that the elect are Christians is well established throughout the New Testament. In Acts 13:48 it is the Gentiles who “had been appointed to eternal life” that believed. Ephesians 1:4-5 reads, “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself”. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Paul tells his audience, “God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.” 2 Timothy 1:9 says that we were called “with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”

I understand how you could argue that election is corporate. But I do not understand how you justify the comment that the elect refers to Israel and never Gentile believers. Scripture simply does not seem to support that conclusion.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hey MB,

I agree with you that the word “world” in John 3:16 means all mankind (Christ is, after all, the Savior of all people, especially those who believe...I do not see that this would be excluded in God loving the world). But I am not sure how you justify the comment that “the elect” are the Jews. There are at least two (two that I can think of, anyway) passages where the word “elect” (ἐκλεκτός) is used to speak of Christians (both Jew and Gentile believers).

In Romans 8:326-39 Paul speaks of the victory that we have in Christ. He speaks of the Spirit helping our weakness and offers the comfort that “God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Those God foreknew, predestined, and called are those who God justified and glorified. Verses 26 and 31 indicate that Paul is connecting these people with the audience (the saints for whom the Spirit intercedes…. the “us” of the passage. This is not Israel that Paul is speaking of, but the Christians in Rome (both Jew and Gentile believers). More broadly, I believe it was not just the Christians in Rome but believers everywhere that are to associate with this passage. This “calling” and “predestination” of the foreknown group of Jews and Gentiles is what many would refer to as “the elect”.

In Romans 8:33 Paul asks who will bring a charge against God’s elect (ἐκλεκτός). Again, this group – the elect – correspond to this “us” for whom Christ intercedes. This group (the elect) are those who will not be separated “from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (v 39).

If we look at 2 Timothy 2:10 we see Paul encouraging Christians to endure. Those who died with Christ will also live with Him. Paul says to remember Christ risen from the dead because that is the reason he suffers hardship. He endures all things for the sake of those who are chosen (ἐκλεκτός). Again, Paul is referring not to Israel but to Christians as God’s elect.

And these are just two places where Paul uses the word “elect” to refer to not Jews or Israel but Christians. Beyond this the doctrine that the elect are Christians is well established throughout the New Testament. In Acts 13:48 it is the Gentiles who “had been appointed to eternal life” that believed. Ephesians 1:4-5 reads, “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself”. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Paul tells his audience, “God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.” 2 Timothy 1:9 says that we were called “with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”

I understand how you could argue that election is corporate. But I do not understand how you justify the comment that the elect refers to Israel and never Gentile believers. Scripture simply does not seem to support that conclusion.

That would indeed be strange wayto see it, as Paul states tha all of the elect as being all those saved, regardless Jew/Gentile!

 

[Revmitchell]

There is in scripture a national election that refers to Israel and a corporate election that refers to all who believe.

 

[JonC]

There is in scripture a national election that refers to Israel and a corporate election that refers to all who believe.

I'll see your two and raise you a third

 

[MB]

Hey MB,

I agree with you that the word “world” in John 3:16 means all mankind (Christ is, after all, the Savior of all people, especially those who believe...I do not see that this would be excluded in God loving the world). But I am not sure how you justify the comment that “the elect” are the Jews. There are at least two (two that I can think of, anyway) passages where the word “elect” (ἐκλεκτός) is used to speak of Christians (both Jew and Gentile believers).

Thank you for your agreement.

In Romans 8:326-39 Paul speaks of the victory that we have in Christ. He speaks of the Spirit helping our weakness and offers the comfort that “God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Those God foreknew, predestined, and called are those who God justified and glorified. Verses 26 and 31 indicate that Paul is connecting these people with the audience (the saints for whom the Spirit intercedes…. the “us” of the passage. This is not Israel that Paul is speaking of, but the Christians in Rome (both Jew and Gentile believers). More broadly, I believe it was not just the Christians in Rome but believers everywhere that are to associate with this passage. This “calling” and “predestination” of the foreknown group of Jews and Gentiles is what many would refer to as “the elect”.

I realize that Paul spoke to Jews and Gentiles and used the term elect. Paul's heart hoped for those Jews because, he was one of them. Christ came to save the Jews alone originally and ended up saving Gentiles as well making Salvation available to who so ever believed. Election does not mean that those elect will be saved no matter what. Neither does being chosen mean those chosen will be saved. If there are elect Gentiles it doesn't mean Gentiles are the replacements for the Jews. I admit we are chosen, and being chosen was planned long before we existed. Christ intercedes for all the saved because Grace is always sufficient. He is not willing that any be sent to hell..
You may say there is no difference between being chosen and being elect. For me there is a difference. RevMitchell explained it perhaps better than I, but it works out to the same thing I believe. There are two very different types of choosings. The first was for the Jews to be a people of God and the last was a choosing for all men to be able to come to Christ. There is no such thing as non chosen since Christ died for the whole world. Just as there is no such thing as non elect Jews. There will be many who go to hell who are chosen, Because they rejected Christ to the end.

In Romans 8:33 Paul asks who will bring a charge against God’s elect (ἐκλεκτός). Again, this group – the elect – correspond to this “us” for whom Christ intercedes. This group (the elect) are those who will not be separated “from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (v 39).

If we look at 2 Timothy 2:10 we see Paul encouraging Christians to endure. Those who died with Christ will also live with Him. Paul says to remember Christ risen from the dead because that is the reason he suffers hardship. He endures all things for the sake of those who are chosen (ἐκλεκτός). Again, Paul is referring not to Israel but to Christians as God’s elect.

And these are just two places where Paul uses the word “elect” to refer to not Jews or Israel but Christians. Beyond this the doctrine that the elect are Christians is well established throughout the New Testament. In Acts 13:48 it is the Gentiles who “had been appointed to eternal life” that believed. Ephesians 1:4-5 reads, “Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself”. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Paul tells his audience, “God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.” 2 Timothy 1:9 says that we were called “with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”

I understand how you could argue that election is corporate. But I do not understand how you justify the comment that the elect refers to Israel and never Gentile believers. Scripture simply does not seem to support that conclusion.

Again there is not one verse that I've been shown that definitively with out doubt points to the calling of Gentiles as elect. Chosen yes. Gentiles will never be Jews and Jews will never be Gentiles. Being chosen or elect either way means nothing if we fail to believe. It isn't some kind of magical thing that insures a place in Heaven for us. If we are not willing we will not be saved.
MB

 

[MB]

Reinterpreted the word? Since when does 'world' mean 'all the people in the world'? Pink's words are on the O.P. If you are trying to refute them you're not doing a very good job.


Again, no Calvinist will disagree with that. Look, here's John 6:37.
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.........' Here is Particular Redemption and Irresistible calling. The Father has given the Son a people to redeem and He will do the job. Not one of them will be lost (see verse 39). "..........and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." And here is the offer to the whole world. Whoever wills may enter; no matter how wicked or vile, let them repent and trust in Christ for salvation and He will not cast them out. But when they finally arrive in heaven they will find out that God the Father has loved them from eternity, given them to the Son to redeem at measureless cost, and drawn them irresistibly to Himself (Jeremiah 31:3).

Gosh! That means I must be the first! Acts 13:48. 'Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.' Do you see? 'It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but God who shows mercy' (Romans 9:16).
Romans 9:8. 'Those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as the seed' (cf. Matthew 8:11-12; Matthew 21:43; Galatians 3:7, 26-29).

John 3:16 tells us nothing of the sort. I note that you have put "the whole world" in quotation marks as if it were in the text, but of course it isn't. Nor, come to that, is the word "chosen." The verse tells us for whom God gave the Son, and it wasn't for the world, it was for the 'whosoevers.'

If this is what you believe why be upset with what I believe. You know Calvinist are just as sure of what they believe as I am about of what I believe. Acts 13:48 has been rearranged to make it say it that way but in the Greek "Believed" comes before being "appointed" I do not claim to be an expert in Greek nor there composition Yet it does seem like men do make mistakes don't they.
MB.

 

[JonC]

Thank you for your agreement.


I realize that Paul spoke to Jews and Gentiles and used the term elect. Paul's heart hoped for those Jews because, he was one of them. Christ came to save the Jews alone originally and ended up saving Gentiles as well making Salvation available to who so ever believed. Election does not mean that those elect will be saved no matter what. Neither does being chosen mean those chosen will be saved. If there are elect Gentiles it doesn't mean Gentiles are the replacements for the Jews. I admit we are chosen, and being chosen was planned long before we existed. Christ intercedes for all the saved because Grace is always sufficient. He is not willing that any be sent to hell..
You may say there is no difference between being chosen and being elect. For me there is a difference. RevMitchell explained it perhaps better than I, but it works out to the same thing I believe. There are two very different types of choosings. The first was for the Jews to be a people of God and the last was a choosing for all men to be able to come to Christ. There is no such thing as non chosen since Christ died for the whole world. Just as there is no such thing as non elect Jews. There will be many who go to hell who are chosen, Because they rejected Christ to the end.



Again there is not one verse that I've been shown that definitively with out doubt points to the calling of Gentiles as elect. Chosen yes. Gentiles will never be Jews and Jews will never be Gentiles. Being chosen or elect either way means nothing if we fail to believe. It isn't some kind of magical thing that insures a place in Heaven for us. If we are not willing we will not be saved.
MB

We do agree on much here, but we also have areas of disagreement.

The two verses I provided do use the term "elect" to refer to both Jew and Gentile believers, but you are right that we do not see specific Gentiles being called "the elect". They are, as you pointed out, added to this group for salvation came to the Hew first. We are "grafted in".

But also remember Paul's words. Not all of Israel is "true Israel", that is, heirs with Christ as the Seed of Abraham.

I agree with Revmitchel except that I also believe election applies to individusls (Israel is the elect as a nation, the Church is the elect as a Body, Jesus is the Elect as God's righteous one, and we are individually the elect as members of that body).

 

[MB]

We do agree on much here, but we also have areas of disagreement.
.

Complete agreements are rare even in most churches.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

There is in scripture a national election that refers to Israel and a corporate election that refers to all who believe.

Gods aves us though on the basis of individual Election.... Based upon His Free Will , and not upon "ours"

 

[MB]

Gods aves us though on the basis of individual Election.... Based upon His Free Will , and not upon "ours"

I would say God is willing to save any of us if we are willing to be saved. Salvation is the result of a mutual agreement of willingness.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

I would say God is willing to save any of us if we are willing to be saved. Salvation is the result of a mutual agreement of willingness.
MB

Problem is that we in our natural state will never desire/want to be saved!

 

[Revmitchell]

Gods aves us though on the basis of individual Election.... Based upon His Free Will , and not upon "ours"

No no corporate election and I agree with the latter.