The Meaning of 'World' in John 3:16

[Revmitchell]

Regeneration and salvation are the same thing. God can convict someone without having regenerated them because He is God and He is powerful enough to do that. In fact that is exactly they way He does it because He is the one who set it up that way.

Further John 1:13 does not mean that the will of man and or his choice is not involved in the process of salvation at all it simply means that it is not the cause. God owns salvation and gives it freely to whom He wants to give it to. If He were to withhold it, those of whom he withheld it from would never be saved. Therefore, based on that fact alone, even though man's will and choice are involved in salvation the credit goes only to God. It is not necessary to discount the choice of man it is only necessary to recognize who gives it.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm not familiar with this term "heart of faith." Can someone point to some scripture that says, "Heart of Faith." Thanks in advance!

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

[JonShaff]

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

I'm familiar with that verse, but i don't see it having relationship to or including the phrase, "Heart of faith."

 

[TCassidy]

Standing before men and confessing Jesus Is Lord is our only method of Salvation

Does that mean you believe salvation is the result of the good works of "Standing before men and confessing Jesus Is Lord?"

Not so. Being saved so we can believe is found no where in scripture. Only Confessing Jesus as Lord will get us Salvation.

Again you conflate regeneration with salvation.

I'll say it again I do not believe you were regenerated before you believed.

Then you believe wrongly.

Only partially true. We receive faith by hearing the gospel.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Regeneration does not bring faith. Hearing God's word does

Yes, God uses means to draw the lost to Himself. What is your point?

I believe this is a debate forum. Disagreements are what debate is all about. I disagree with your view and obviously you dislike that.

You said, "You will also claim men cannot hear the gospel . . . " I never said that. I never claimed that. I have not and will not claim that. I do not believe that. It is not a "disagreement." It is a lie straight out of the pit of hell. Don't do it again.

Not so I'm not confused. I see the truth of scripture and you tell me I'm confused.

Yes, you have confused regeneration with salvation. They are not the same thing. Regeneration results in our salvation.

Not everyone here agrees with Calvinism. I reject it completely

Wonderful. What's your point? You reject that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?" (T) You reject that man is not saved because of any merit in himself, but only by the Grace of God?" (U) You believe that everybody, including the Devil and his demons will be saved? (L) You believe the regenerate can/will resist unto perdition? (I) You deny eternal security? (P)

Not so "faith cometh by hearing the word of God.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes, we have already dealt with that. God uses means to draw sinners unto Himself.

I do not deny that my Salvation is a work of God.

I don't recall saying you did. Could you post when I made such a claim?

It is you that tells me it's my work.

When did I say that?

You don't believe all things are possible with God.

You have already been warned about lying about what I believe. Don't do it again.

That He saves sinners the "who so evers"not saved people.

That is a confusing statement. He saves the saved? What do you mean by that? Again, you are conflating regeneration with salvation.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm familiar with that verse, but i don't see it having relationship to or including the phrase, "Heart of faith."

Then what is the point of the passage? They had a cold, dead heart of unbelief. He gave them a new living heart. The context makes it clear the "living heart" is a believing heart.

 

[MB]

Does that mean you believe salvation is the result of the good works of "Standing before men and confessing Jesus Is Lord?

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Again you conflate regeneration with salvation.

Your argument is with the gospel. I'm only casting proof with scripture.

Then you believe wrongly.

Yet you have not shown scripture that clearly supports the view that Salvation and regeneration are the same.

.
Yes, God uses means to draw the lost to Himself. What is your point?

It's not just a drawing which it certainly does but is how we acquire faith.

You said, "You will also claim men cannot hear the gospel . . . " I never said that. I never claimed that. I have not and will not claim that. I do not believe that. It is not a "disagreement." It is a lie straight out of the pit of hell. Don't do it again.

Then you believe all men can hear the gospel? I was under the impression that you are a 5 point Calvinist. If not I beg your pardon. Calvinism fails eventually with out faith in all 5 points.

Yes, you have confused regeneration with salvation. They are not the same thing. Regeneration results in our salvation.

Please show scripture proving this to be so

Wonderful. What's your point? You reject that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?"

Not true this is a lie I have never said such a thing

(T) You reject that man is not saved because of any merit in himself, but only by the Grace of God?"

Not true. Man is not saved because of merits like unconditional election. Man is saved by the Grace of God

(U) You believe that everybody, including the Devil and his demons will be saved? (L)

That is not true and what's more you know it isn't true.

You believe the regenerate can/will resist unto perdition?

again not true.

(I) You deny eternal security? (P)

Yet another not true
Do you believe I shouldn't be allowed to disagree with you? Is this why you accuse me of such nonsense?

Yes, we have already dealt with that. God uses means to draw sinners unto Himself.
I don't recall saying you did. Could you post when I made such a claim?When did I say that?You have already been warned about lying about what I believe.

I believe you are the one who needs the warning because you told me I deny eternal security. Which makes you the one telling lies.

Don't do it again.That is a confusing statement. He saves the saved? What do you mean by that? Again, you are conflating regeneration with salvation.

Not so He saves the lost, the saved do not need saving.
MB

 

[utilyan]

The first thing Paul did was call Jesus Lord and ask Him who He was when light surrounded Him. Paul Knew it was the Lord and responded in this light.
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord?
Jesus told Paul who He was But calling Him Lord is a confession that saved Paul. Then in the next verse He submits to the Lord.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Many Calvinist seem to ignore what is really said and done here. Trully a work of God just as it is with every sinners.Confession That Jesus is Lord and submission to the will of the Lord..


Yes Paul was shown mercy just as every sinner is shown mercy.



True every word a person that is regenerated is no longer sick or in need of Salvation.

If your elect/justified/righteous, Jesus is not here for you.

If your a saint/believer/faithful. Jesus is not here for you.



Jesus is here for that sinner especially the one you don't want him to help.

MB[/QUOTE]


No MB, I disagree with Calvinist position.

But your absolute conditions are wrong too.

First thing Paul did is persecute Christians. Jesus didn't start off with great job believing me now, He was struck blind and asked WHY ARE YOU PERCECUTING ME?

Paul had no intent whatsoever to be Christian, no faith, no believe, no election, no regeneration, no conviction, Absolutely disqualified in every way to be Christian.

Even the Devil will recongnize Jesus Christ:

Luke 4

34“Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!”

Luke 4
41Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.


Notice Demons just love telling everyone who Jesus is, absolutely abhor telling us what Jesus instructed us to DO.



A father who doesn't have fatherhood as his highest priority is not a father.

At a snap of a finger, blink of an eye, or push of a button God can have everyone on this thread and in the world behave without sin and be perfect.

God is not here to give a heart or brain transplant, God does not need to repent, mankind needs to repent.

The accusation thrown by Calvinist is God has not acted for everyone, he holds back doesn't want to help some who drown in sin.

The accusation thrown by non-Calvinist is God can't act at all, and won't help anyone who doesn't want to help themselves. That God won't help unless you got faith or believe.

Both views are wrong , A good father is a father first. The rules were not made for God they were made to help sinners get on their feet. God is love and the goal of Christianity is Love. He will leave 99 sheep to look for the lost one. He is a perfect Father.

Tomorrow the whole world can say you are worthless including yourself thinking it. The whole world can say you deserve hell. Everyone can throw rocks at you spit on you and hate you. And you can look at yourself and find nothing of worth. Yet God loves you more then anything, He didn't say it with just words, but THE WORD Jesus Christ, You are worth more to him then Jesus Christ.


Luke 6
35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.


1 timothy 1
5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

 

[JonShaff]

Then what is the point of the passage? They had a cold, dead heart of unbelief. He gave them a new living heart. The context makes it clear the "living heart" is a believing heart.

This is a prophecy of Israel, in context, correct?

 

[TCassidy]

Your argument is with the gospel.

No, my argument is with you and that you conflate regeneration with salvation.

Yet you have not shown scripture that clearly supports the view that Salvation and regeneration are the same.

They are not the same. Regeneration results in salvation. Regeneration results in salvation from the penalty of sin. Regeneration is saving us from the power of sin. And regeneration will save us from the presence of sin. So, it is clear that regeneration and salvation are not the same thing.

Then you believe all men can hear the gospel?

Well, except a few who are totally deaf. But even they can "hear" it in the sense of knowing or understanding it.

I was under the impression that you are a 5 point Calvinist.

I am not a Calvinist at all. I am a Particular Baptist, believing in Particular Redemption as outlined in the Canons of the Synod of Dort.

Not true this is a lie I have never said such a thing

I didn't say you did. I asked you a question.

Man is not saved because of merits like unconditional election.

So, does this mean you believe in conditional election? And how can something unconditional have conditions?

That is not true and what's more you know it isn't true.

It was a question.

again not true.

Again, a question.

Yet another not true

Yet another question.

Do you believe I shouldn't be allowed to disagree with you?

Have I ever said you can't disagree with me?

Is this why you accuse me of such nonsense?

I haven't accused you of anything. I asked you questions in an attempt to understand what you believe. So far I haven't received much in the way of answers.

I believe you are the one who needs the warning because you told me I deny eternal security. Which makes you the one telling lies.

I told you no such thing. I asked you a question. A question intended to clarify what you believe.

Not so He saves the lost, the saved do not need saving.

Then what did you mean by "He saves sinners the "who so evers"not saved people?"

 

[TCassidy]

This is a prophecy of Israel, in context, correct?

It is directed to the people of God, in this case in the Old Testament, but also applies to the people of God in the New Testament. There is only one Gospel.

 

[JonShaff]

It is directed to the people of God, in this case in the Old Testament, but also applies to the people of God in the New Testament. There is only one Gospel.

In the Time of Ezekiel, was it directed towards Israel the Nation? Did it get fulfilled? How did you determine it applies to "the people of God in the New testament"? What hermeneuitcal approach led you to believe that?

Ezekiel 36

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

So, this happened to the people of God in the New Testament as well? Do you only apply a certain portion of this chapter to the NT believer? What methods did you follow to arrive at that conclusion?

So believers in the NT weren't acting right and THEN God took out their Stoney heart? Help me make sense here, brother.

 

[TCassidy]

So believers in the NT weren't acting right and THEN God took out their Stoney heart?

Yes. "Not acting right" is called "sin." And they were not, as yet, believers. Just as national Israel was in unbelief and given a heart of believing flesh transforming them into Spiritual Israel. And removing the heart of stone and giving a new heart of flesh is called "regeneration."

 

[JonShaff]

Yes. "Not acting right" is called "sin." And they were not, as yet, believers. Just as national Israel was in unbelief and given a heart of believing flesh transforming them into Spiritual Israel. And removing the heart of stone and giving a new heart of flesh is called "regeneration."

I don't see where you answered any of my questions, brother.

 

[TCassidy]

I don't see where you answered any of my questions, brother.

Well, I am sorry you didn't understand. I really don't know how to make it any simpler. Sin = death. A new heart (regeneration) = life. That is as simple (and simplistic) as I can make it.

 

[JonShaff]

Well, I am sorry you didn't understand. I really don't know how to make it any simpler. Sin = death. A new heart (regeneration) = life. That is as simple (and simplistic) as I can make it.

I asked you several other questions...

In the Time of Ezekiel, was it directed towards Israel the Nation? Did it get fulfilled (if so when)? How did you determine it applies to "the people of God in the New testament"? What hermeneuitcal approach led you to believe that?

Ezekiel 36

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

So, this happened to the people of God in the New Testament as well? Do you only apply a certain portion of this chapter to the NT believer? What methods did you follow to arrive at that conclusion?

Care to answer them?

 

[TCassidy]

In the Time of Ezekiel, was it directed towards Israel the Nation?

To national Israel, yes. As I said earlier.

Did it get fulfilled (if so when)?

Yes. At that time. Making them Spiritual Israel. As I said earlier.

How did you determine it applies to "the people of God in the New testament"?

Because there is only one Gospel, as I stated earlier.

What hermeneuitcal approach led you to believe that?

The Literal/Historical/Grammatical hermeneutic.

So, this happened to the people of God in the New Testament as well?

Yes. There is only one Gospel. As I said earlier.

Do you only apply a certain portion of this chapter to the NT believer?

I apply what applies to the People of God to the People of God.

What methods did you follow to arrive at that conclusion?

The Literal/Historical/Grammatical hermeneutic. As I already said.

Care to answer them?

I have answered them. At least twice and for one question, three times.

 

[JonShaff]

To national Israel, yes. As I said earlier.

Yes. At that time. Making them Spiritual Israel. As I said earlier.

Because there is only one Gospel, as I stated earlier.

The Literal/Historical/Grammatical hermeneutic.

Yes. There is only one Gospel. As I said earlier.

I apply what applies to the People of God to the People of God.

The Literal/Historical/Grammatical hermeneutic. As I already said.

I have answered them. At least twice and for one question, three times.

When did this new heart come to Israel? After Babylonian Captivity? With Ezra and Nehemiah? With John the Baptist? Pentecost? I think we are being a little loose with the Text, don't you?

 

[TCassidy]

When did this new heart come to Israel?

As God determined.

I think we are being a little loose with the Text, don't you?

I'm not but you may be.

 

[JonShaff]

As God determined.

I'm not but you may be.

 

[Iconoclast]

In the Time of Ezekiel, was it directed towards Israel the Nation? Did it get fulfilled? How did you determine it applies to "the people of God in the New testament"? What hermeneuitcal approach led you to believe that?

Ezekiel 36

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

So, this happened to the people of God in the New Testament as well? Do you only apply a certain portion of this chapter to the NT believer? What methods did you follow to arrive at that conclusion?

So believers in the NT weren't acting right and THEN God took out their Stoney heart? Help me make sense here, brother.

The promises were given to the nation for years.....only an elect remnant were saved.

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed