The Music Debate Today

[JonC]

So 1 person (you) says he knows the "real" context while the rest of the globe sings a song that makes no biblical point, but they feel good so kudos for that.

Jon, you are digging deep to try find something edible from a song that is void of any substance.

I shared the words. No one is going to make the connection you are trying to make.

No. The writer of the song provided the context.

Likewise, Debussy provided the context for Par les rues et par les chemins. I've seen Ibéria (the second piece of Images pour Orchestre) performed a few times, listened to it a hundred times and Par les rues et par les chemins is a favorite.

BUT without knowing the context I doubt I would enjoy it so much as the imagry (the actual subject matter) would be missing. It would still be a great composition, but it would lack what is being communicated.

Many songs are like that. Daniel (sung by Elton John) only communicates the meaning of the lyrics when you know Taupin wrote the song after considering the men returning to a small town after the Vietnam War (writtten from a younger brother's perspective). While the song is still abstract, without the context it's just a pretty song that does mean much.

And Elliot's hollow men were not really stuffed with straw. Brownings Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came was illusionary (you can't pin point a subject matter) yet it still communicates very well.

But once one realizes Miles wrote the song about the John 20 account of Mary's encounter with Jesus then the context supports the subject (worship).

The problem is today worship often takes a back seat to a sermon. Both are equally important. But some cannot tolerate the biblical narrative as a whole because it is emotional. Others cannot tolerate the biblical narrative because it is objective truth. Both of these types of people are the worst for their predjudices.

Literacy has been lost in our culture. For some reason we have largely become a society that is limited in comprehension. We read as if we were reading newspapers. It is sad. But you have to remember that we once valued depth.

Anyway, to answer your allegation, it is no secret that In the Garden is about John 20. The writer provided the context for the song (Miles wrote the song in 1912 and provided the context). That you were unaware has no relevance.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Great now show, from Scripture, how hymns are godly but CCM is not.

I have presented my views at great lengths in previous threads in this "Music Ministry" section. You are welcome to go through them. I do not remember now whether you engaged with me in those threads or not. In any case, I am not inclined to rehash all that material here.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You sound like Jimmy Swaggart. He always said he just knew what music was good and what was of Satan. His honkey tonk piano music was Godly, but it sounded just like his cousins Jerry Lee Lewis and Mickey Gilleys honky tonk piano music. For some reason music that sounded like rock was of the devil because how it sounded. You remind me of Jimmy.

Swaggart was before my time as a believer, and I have had almost no contact with his views and positions so I cannot engage knowledgeably with you concerning your likening me to him.

 

[AustinC]

No. The writer of the song provided the context.

Likewise, Debussy provided the context for Par les rues et par les chemins. I've seen Ibéria (the second piece of Images pour Orchestre) performed a few times, listened to it a hundred times and Par les rues et par les chemins is a favorite.

BUT without knowing the context I doubt I would enjoy it so much as the imagry (the actual subject matter) would be missing. It would still be a great composition, but it would lack what is being communicated.

Many songs are like that. Daniel (sung by Elton John) only communicates the meaning of the lyrics when you know Taupin wrote the song after considering the men returning to a small town after the Vietnam War (writtten from a younger brother's perspective). While the song is still abstract, without the context it's just a pretty song that does mean much.

And Elliot's hollow men were not really stuffed with straw. Brownings Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came was illusionary (you can't pin point a subject matter) yet it still communicates very well.

But once one realizes Miles wrote the song about the John 20 account of Mary's encounter with Jesus then the context supports the subject (worship).

The problem is today worship often takes a back seat to a sermon. Both are equally important. But some cannot tolerate the biblical narrative as a whole because it is emotional. Others cannot tolerate the biblical narrative because it is objective truth. Both of these types of people are the worst for their predjudices.

Literacy has been lost in our culture. For some reason we have largely become a society that is limited in comprehension. We read as if we were reading newspapers. It is sad. But you have to remember that we once valued depth.

Anyway, to answer your allegation, it is no secret that In the Garden is about John 20. The writer provided the context for the song (Miles wrote the song in 1912 and provided the context). That you were unaware has no relevance.

There is nothing in the song that identifies Mary, nor what garden. Look at the lyrics, Jon. That's what everyone looks at. You can't find Jesus and his supremacy in the song. What you find is how good you feel.

 

[JonC]

There is nothing in the song that identifies Mary, nor what garden. Look at the lyrics, Jon. That's what everyone looks at. You can't find Jesus and his supremacy in the song. What you find is how good you feel.

Yep. Without Miles providing the context all you'd know from the song is that somebody came to a garden early in the morning, met Jesus ("the Son of God"), longed to stay with Him, wanted Jesus to stay but He said He had to go. If you were not familiar with Scripture then you would have no clue this was about Mary.


There is nothing in Ibéria that tells you what it is about either (there are no lyrics). How do we know it is about a trip to Spain (that Debussy never actually took)? The writer of the music told us what it is about.

Miles told us what the song is about. It is about Mary's encounter with Jesus in John 20.

Remember? You even mistook his comments for saying he was in a trance. He said it was about John 20. He said it was about Mary's encounter with Jesus.

 

[Reformed1689]

I have presented my views at great lengths in previous threads in this "Music Ministry" section. You are welcome to go through them. I do not remember now whether you engaged with me in those threads or not. In any case, I am not inclined to rehash all that material here.

So you got nothing then. I'm not going to go looking, this is the thread we are talking about, my question was on the topic, you refuse to answer. Noted.

 

[Reynolds]

I have presented my views at great lengths in previous threads in this "Music Ministry" section. You are welcome to go through them. I do not remember now whether you engaged with me in those threads or not. In any case, I am not inclined to rehash all that material here.

If they are not here, then they don't count on this thread. From now on, my answer to everything can be that "I have already explained that in another thread. You go find it "

 

[AustinC]

I am still waiting for that quote from Amy Grant. Perhaps gossipping is the modus operandi with this thread...

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

If they are not here, then they don't count on this thread. From now on, my answer to everything can be that "I have already explained that in another thread. You go find it "

Here is my first thread in the "Music Ministry" section of BB: Does Scripture Teach That God Created All Music?

You made comment #15 in that thread: "I really do not believe that any music, absent lyrics, is evil in and of itsself.
Did God create all music? I would say no for the same reason I would say He did not createc jet planes, or cruise ships."

I responded in comment #19: "Do you have any Scripture to support your belief that music without lyrics cannot be evil in and of itself?"

You provided no response to my comment. Given that you did not provide any scriptural support for your position in that thread, we do not have anything new to discuss in this thread unless you are prepared to support that statement now from Scripture.

 

[Piper]

Here's the lyrics.
1 I come to the garden alone,
While the dew is still on the roses;
And the voice I hear, falling on my ear,
The Son of God discloses.

Refrain:
And He walks with me, and He talks with me,
And He tells me I am His own,
And the joy we share as we tarry there,
None other has ever known.

2 He speaks, and the sound of His voice
Is so sweet the birds hush their singing;
And the melody that He gave to me
Within my heart is ringing. [Refrain]

3 I'd stay in the garden with Him
Tho' the night around me be falling;
But He bids me go; thro' the voice of woe,
His voice to me is calling. [Refrain]

Honestly, the song is empty lyrics filled with surmising and speculation. It creates a historical fiction at best. It's similar to what the TV series, the Chosen, is doing with the Gospels. It's creating a fictional back story within a sliver of truth. Ultimately it serves no theological purpose in teaching us about God. Instead its only function is to create an emotional response from a very human-centric position. Ultimately it does more harm than good for the Christian who truly seeks to know their God.

Aside from your narrow minded theological pharasaism, I like this song.

 

[AustinC]

Aside from your narrow minded theological pharasaism, I like this song.

I guess to each their own. It is an easy song to whistle if that means anything.
If one enjoys sermons that sound nice but don't say anything, then this song would fit perfectly.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Fifty years ago (1972), the majority of IFB churches did not use CCM or CWM in their worship. I wonder what the percentages are today.

So as not to hijack this thread, I am going to start a separate poll on this question.

 

[AustinC]

The blessing of music:

The Unifying Power of Singing

 

[Marooncat79]

50 yrs ago the CCM was almost unknown

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

50 yrs ago the CCM was almost unknown

From the Wikipedia article on CCM:

"Evangelical and Protestant Christianity formed a born again style of Christian music. Those involved were affected by the late 1960s to early 1970s Jesus movement, and colloquially self-referred to as "Jesus Freaks", as the counterculture movement of hippies, flower children, and flower power swept the nation. The Calvary Chapel was one such movement, which launched Maranatha Music in 1971. They soon began to express themselves in alternative styles of popular music and worship music.

Larry Norman is often remembered as the "father of Christian rock", because of his early contributions (before the Jesus movement) to the developing new genre that mixed rock rhythms with the Christian messages.[10] Though his style was not initially well received by many in the Christian community of the time, he continued throughout his career to create controversial hard-rock songs such as "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?".[10] He is remembered as the artist "who first combined rock 'n' roll with Christian lyrics" in the Gospel Music Hall of Fame.[10] Though there were Christian albums in the 1960s that contained contemporary-sounding songs, there were two albums recorded in 1969 that are considered[by whom?] to be the first complete albums of "Jesus rock": Upon This Rock (1969) by Larry Norman initially released on Capitol Records,[11] and Mylon – We Believe by Mylon LeFevre, released by Cotillion, which was LeFevre's attempt at blending gospel music with southern rock.[12][13] Unlike traditional or southern gospel music, this new Jesus music was birthed out of rock and folk music.[14]

Pioneers of this movement also included Andraé Crouch and the Disciples, 2nd Chapter of Acts, Barry McGuire, Evie, Paul Clark, the Imperials and Keith Green among others. The small Jesus music culture had expanded into a multimillion-dollar industry by the 1980s.[8][15][16] Many CCM artists such as Benny Hester,[17][18] Amy Grant,[19] DC Talk,[20] Michael W. Smith,[21] Stryper,[22] and Jars of Clay[23] found crossover success with Top 40 mainstream radio play.

The genre emerged and became prevalent in the 1970s and 1980s.[24] Beginning in July 1978, CCM Magazine began covering "contemporary Christian music" artists and a wide range of spiritual themes until it launched online publications in 2009.[25][26]"​

 

[Marooncat79]

So yeah, pretty much unknown until a little later

 

[Reformed1689]

Oh man I forgot about Stryper lol

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I have started going back through all the pages that list the threads in this Music Ministry section (starting with page 64) where people have discussed their differing views about music in church. I have made it through page 59 and found it interesting reading. Reading through these threads reveals that much of the discussion that might be had today between people with differing music positions has already occurred between other such people in earlier threads from many years ago. Reading back through these older threads has proven valuable because it shows me what others have already said and how others have responded to what they have said.

This thread was particularly interesting: Instrumental Worship - is it Biblical?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I just finished reading through all 14 pages and 275 posts in the following thread: Confessions of a Former Worship Leader | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

It was very interesting reading and gives me a lot more understanding where one person has been coming from in his opposition to my positions in my music threads on BB.

I will probably have to read the thread through again to process it all and profit more fully from it.

 

[JonC]

From the Wikipedia article on CCM:

"Evangelical and Protestant Christianity formed a born again style of Christian music. Those involved were affected by the late 1960s to early 1970s Jesus movement, and colloquially self-referred to as "Jesus Freaks", as the counterculture movement of hippies, flower children, and flower power swept the nation. The Calvary Chapel was one such movement, which launched Maranatha Music in 1971. They soon began to express themselves in alternative styles of popular music and worship music.

Larry Norman is often remembered as the "father of Christian rock", because of his early contributions (before the Jesus movement) to the developing new genre that mixed rock rhythms with the Christian messages.[10] Though his style was not initially well received by many in the Christian community of the time, he continued throughout his career to create controversial hard-rock songs such as "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?".[10] He is remembered as the artist "who first combined rock 'n' roll with Christian lyrics" in the Gospel Music Hall of Fame.[10] Though there were Christian albums in the 1960s that contained contemporary-sounding songs, there were two albums recorded in 1969 that are considered[by whom?] to be the first complete albums of "Jesus rock": Upon This Rock (1969) by Larry Norman initially released on Capitol Records,[11] and Mylon – We Believe by Mylon LeFevre, released by Cotillion, which was LeFevre's attempt at blending gospel music with southern rock.[12][13] Unlike traditional or southern gospel music, this new Jesus music was birthed out of rock and folk music.[14]

Pioneers of this movement also included Andraé Crouch and the Disciples, 2nd Chapter of Acts, Barry McGuire, Evie, Paul Clark, the Imperials and Keith Green among others. The small Jesus music culture had expanded into a multimillion-dollar industry by the 1980s.[8][15][16] Many CCM artists such as Benny Hester,[17][18] Amy Grant,[19] DC Talk,[20] Michael W. Smith,[21] Stryper,[22] and Jars of Clay[23] found crossover success with Top 40 mainstream radio play.

The genre emerged and became prevalent in the 1970s and 1980s.[24] Beginning in July 1978, CCM Magazine began covering "contemporary Christian music" artists and a wide range of spiritual themes until it launched online publications in 2009.[25][26]"​

My son listens mostly to Christian hip hop. I had forgotten about Stryper, but we were talking about Jars of Clay (a band I like) and I played him a Stryper song. I had also forgotten exactly how bad they were (even back then).