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The Natural man

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Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Scripture only speaks of two kinds of men.
Kata sarka
Kata Pneuma
Those under the dominion of the flesh, those under the dominion of the Spirit.
Roman's 8 is quite clear,those without the Spirit are not believers.
14But the natural man ( saved but carnal babe ) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual ( Mature believer) judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The natural man is unsaved.
Anyone trying to teach otherwise does not know what they are talking about.
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
The natural man is unsaved.
Anyone trying to teach otherwise does not know what they are talking about.
Well your offering no context in 1 cor 2and chapter 3 that proves he suddenly deviates in one verse to mention a lost man . The bible refers to lost people as the 'unjust '
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well your offering no context in 1 cor 2and chapter 3 that proves he suddenly deviates in one verse to mention a lost man . The bible refers to lost people as the 'unjust '
there is no chapter division,he is contrasting the understanding of the lost, and the saved.
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
there is no chapter division,he is contrasting the understanding of the lost, and the saved.
Yes that makes my point clearer. Reading straight into chapter 3 it's clear that hes still talking about the un mature ( natural , hasn't moved on from being a babe , hes still natural in the sense of ' fleshy ' divisive and in need of milk not ready for the meat ' natural. But the Spiritual man ( mature) understands the wisdom paul is speaking among them.
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Natural men have a dead spirit
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
ok this is 1 cor 2 .15 .
Notice the Spiritual ( mature ) believer ( Perfect ) he is judged of no man and judge th all things . Contrasted with Paul Judging these babes/ carnal saved believers and rebuking them for not being able Judge matters . That makes no sense to say all believers are not judged and Judge all things .
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
The natural man is unsaved.
Anyone trying to teach otherwise does not know what they are talking about.
If you check the Greek for Natural and Carnal man it's essentially the same ..But it's the context which
there is no chapter division,he is contrasting the understanding of the lost, and the saved.
Why does Paul need to tell saved people in this context , lost people cannot understand the wisdom he speaks among them that are mature ?
 

Twiceborn

Member
Everyone has a "natural" or "carnal" man. This is the man of the first birth. Only those who have been born again have a spiritual man though, he's the "new creature" of the second birth. He's "the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Those who are born again have two men, and are expected to "put on the new man", rather than to continue in the "old man". Those who have never been born again cannot discern spiritual things and, similarly, those who continue in the old man after being born again lack spiritual discernment. The "natural man" cannot receive the things of God, regardless of whose "natural man" you're talking about. Only the spiritual man can receive the things of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
I agree that if a person does not have the Holy spirit he is not saved .
But Paul is addressing the church. ( those that have the Spirit.
notice in 1 cor 6

The flaw in your statement "But Paul is addressing the church" is that you assume everyone in the church at Corinth is actually a believer. We know that people in churches do, in fact, prove themselves to be otherwise. In Acts, Paul describes the "wolves" to the Ephesian elders--and those wolves come from inside the church, not from the outside. Anyone would be hard pressed to say the "wolves" are believers.

Check the Greek if you must. The Natural ( fleshy ) v ' Carnal ( fleshy ) it's just a synonym. Chapter 3 flows from chapter 2 .

This is not true. "Carnal" is an old English translation of ψυχικός and ψυχικός means "unspiritual" or "worldly." It can mean "natural," but Paul's usage (four times in 1 Corinthians) shows that natural is meant only when talking about the body (as he discusses it 1 Cor 15).

Paul here doesnt suddenly drop in a verse about lost people Hes making a point that He who is ' spiritual ' which is still the same mature person he is saying in verse 6 . contrasted with the Natural man ( The saved believer who is not ready for more ' spiritual ( mature ) wisdom . Why ? because they are behaving carnally .

The context of the pericope proves your argument to be incorrect. Here is the text:

[6] Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. [7] But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. [8] None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. [9] But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

[10] these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. [11] For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. [13] And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

[14] The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. [15] The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. [16] “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:6–16 ESV)​

In v. 10, Paul says the wisdom of God is revealed through the Spirit. So, the things of God cannot be known without the inward illumination of the Holy Spirit. I doubt we'd disagree. Then, he contrasts the spirit of the world with the Spirit of God. His point is that believers have the Spirit of God with the express reason that we (believers) may understand the things of God. Paul goes on to say the transmission of the things of God happens not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit--"interpreting truths to those who are spiritual." Paul is clear here in his implication: If you do not have the Spirit of God, you have no real hope of understanding (or rightly understanding) the things of God. Then, what he made implicit in v. 13 he makes explicit in v. 14: The "natural" person does not--and cannot--accept the things of God.

So, Paul--here--is not talking about a believer; he is discussing an unbeliever. But, he is discussing believers and unbelievers in contrast--because of what is coming up in chapter 3. In chapter 2 he is clear: The "natural" man is an unbeliever because he "does not accept" and "is not able to understand" the things of God. Paul has already told us that we are able to understand the things of God if we have the Spirit. But with the natural man, there is no option. Understanding is not even available to the natural man, therefore he or she is an unbeliever.

Now, in chapter 3, Paul does equate the believers with being infants, not unbelievers. Here is the pertinent text:

[1] But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. [2] I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, [3] for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? [4] For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? (1 Corinthians 3:1–4 ESV)​

Notice that Paul is using "as," as in "I could not address you as spiritual people." In English when "like" or "as" is used it is called simile. It is a linguistic tool of comparison. So, Paul is comparing the "Brothers" (so, believers) in the church of Corinth as "people of the flesh" (so, non-believers). However... He does put the comparison defining clause "as infants in Christ" to define "people of the flesh." Now, we know from Paul's use of "brothers" that he is intending to address believers. What he says to them is important: They are certainly not acting like believers.

In other words, the Corinthian believers were fed "milk" by Paul when he was with them and they have not grown past being spiritual infants. It would seem Paul expected them to grow into "solid food," but they haven't done so. Instead of behaving like believers, they are behaving in a human way.

To conclude, then, Paul knows nothing of the so-called "carnal" Christian as described by so many (because the natural man does not and cannot understand the things of God). What he does in chapter 3 is to compare the believers to non-believers, which is to call into question their Christianity--though he does not discount their belief (calling them infants). The Corinthian believers are not showing the fruit of repentance and faith. Paul does not consider it proper or normal for Christians to remain "infants," probably because infant Christians look like unbelievers. The only way to know the difference is that infant Christians (because of the work of the Spirit) grow into mature Christians. And... only time will tell.

The Archangel
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Notice in Galations 6.1
what the term ' spiritual ' refers to .
1¶Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
This is a Mature believer ( spiritual ) The same as mentioned in 1 cor 2 .
' spiritual ' does not mean ( A person who has the Holy Spirit)
Good point. These letters were written to believers and they ALWAYS assume the audience to be Christians. When comments are made to the contrary they are quickly followed by clarification they are not implying the audience are not saved (e.g., Hebrews 6:9). The gospels have a different tone, but these epistles are to the Church.
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
The flaw in your statement "But Paul is addressing the church" is that you assume everyone in the church at Corinth is actually a believer. We know that people in churches do, in fact, prove themselves to be otherwise. In Acts, Paul describes the "wolves" to the Ephesian elders--and those wolves come from inside the church, not from the outside. Anyone would be hard pressed to say the "wolves" are believers.



This is not true. "Carnal" is an old English translation of ψυχικός and ψυχικός means "unspiritual" or "worldly." It can mean "natural," but Paul's usage (four times in 1 Corinthians) shows that natural is meant only when talking about the body (as he discusses it 1 Cor 15).



The context of the pericope proves your argument to be incorrect. Here is the text:

[6] Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. [7] But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. [8] None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. [9] But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

[10] these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. [11] For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. [13] And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

[14] The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. [15] The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. [16] “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:6–16 ESV)​

In v. 10, Paul says the wisdom of God is revealed through the Spirit. So, the things of God cannot be known without the inward illumination of the Holy Spirit. I doubt we'd disagree. Then, he contrasts the spirit of the world with the Spirit of God. His point is that believers have the Spirit of God with the express reason that we (believers) may understand the things of God. Paul goes on to say the transmission of the things of God happens not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit--"interpreting truths to those who are spiritual." Paul is clear here in his implication: If you do not have the Spirit of God, you have no real hope of understanding (or rightly understanding) the things of God. Then, what he made implicit in v. 13 he makes explicit in v. 14: The "natural" person does not--and cannot--accept the things of God.

So, Paul--here--is not talking about a believer; he is discussing an unbeliever. But, he is discussing believers and unbelievers in contrast--because of what is coming up in chapter 3. In chapter 2 he is clear: The "natural" man is an unbeliever because he "does not accept" and "is not able to understand" the things of God. Paul has already told us that we are able to understand the things of God if we have the Spirit. But with the natural man, there is no option. Understanding is not even available to the natural man, therefore he or she is an unbeliever.

Now, in chapter 3, Paul does equate the believers with being infants, not unbelievers. Here is the pertinent text:

[1] But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. [2] I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, [3] for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? [4] For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? (1 Corinthians 3:1–4 ESV)​

Notice that Paul is using "as," as in "I could not address you as spiritual people." In English when "like" or "as" is used it is called simile. It is a linguistic tool of comparison. So, Paul is comparing the "Brothers" (so, believers) in the church of Corinth as "people of the flesh" (so, non-believers). However... He does put the comparison defining clause "as infants in Christ" to define "people of the flesh." Now, we know from Paul's use of "brothers" that he is intending to address believers. What he says to them is important: They are certainly not acting like believers.

In other words, the Corinthian believers were fed "milk" by Paul when he was with them and they have not grown past being spiritual infants. It would seem Paul expected them to grow into "solid food," but they haven't done so. Instead of behaving like believers, they are behaving in a human way.

To conclude, then, Paul knows nothing of the so-called "carnal" Christian as described by so many (because the natural man does not and cannot understand the things of God). What he does in chapter 3 is to compare the believers to non-believers, which is to call into question their Christianity--though he does not discount their belief (calling them infants). The Corinthian believers are not showing the fruit of repentance and faith. Paul does not consider it proper or normal for Christians to remain "infants," probably because infant Christians look like unbelievers. The only way to know the difference is that infant Christians (because of the work of the Spirit) grow into mature Christians. And... only time will tell.

The Archangel
That's a lot of effort to explain a simple text . Heres what I see . Paul is talking to believers. Hes already said they are saved. they are sanctified and are saints ..Then comes the rebuke ..Hey there divisions among you . I cannot speak unto you as mature believers. Your behaviour is carnal. He has to remind them they have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. This is the most carnal Church in the new testament. Because of what they have been saved from they are still growing but Paul is pressing them to go on . Apollos came to further Paul's beginnings with them. But Paul cannot still share the deeper wisdom with them that he shares among the Mature ( Gal 6 reminds us that the term ' spiritual refers to Mature believers not just believers in General ) A Natural man which is what Paul distinguishes from the Mature because of carnality ( divisions, getting drunk at the Lords supper , letting some go Hungary, over emphasising the Gifts , abusing the gifts . Paul is saying hey you want the deeper truths the Wisdom I give among the mature then heres the reason I cannot speak the wisdom among you because your of your carnal behaviour. Your unable to hear . You cannot bear and your unable to understand.
But what we see in Christianese is Catchy cakvernist buzz words coming from a paradigm looking for a proof text to say a unbeliever cannot believe or understand the Gosepl unless regeneration precedes faith . Then the context does not matter.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
But what we see in Christianese is Catchy cakvernist buzz words coming from a paradigm looking for a proof text to say a unbeliever cannot believe or understand the Gosepl unless regeneration precedes faith . Then the context does not matter.

This is absurd. First, I have not argued that the passage says anything about regeneration preceding faith. So, do not put words into my mouth. Second, the text clearly says--as I have demonstrated--that in 1 Cor 2 Paul does argue an unbeliever cannot understand the things of God. The reason I went through the effort of explaining it to you is that you so negligently dismissed it.

The text allows you to make a certain case from chapter 3 while not allowing you to make the same case from chapter 2.

The Archangel
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is absurd. First, I have not argued that the passage says anything about regeneration preceding faith. So, do not put words into my mouth. Second, the text clearly says--as I have demonstrated--that in 1 Cor 2 Paul does argue an unbeliever cannot understand the things of God. The reason I went through the effort of explaining it to you is that you so negligently dismissed it.

The text allows you to make a certain case from chapter 3 while not allowing you to make the same case from chapter 2.

The Archangel

It seems clear that some are just set to resist the truth, no matter what.
This paragraph explains it all.
Notice that Paul is using "as," as in "I could not address you as spiritual people." In English when "like" or "as" is used it is called simile. It is a linguistic tool of comparison. So, Paul is comparing the "Brothers" (so, believers) in the church of Corinth as "people of the flesh" (so, non-believers). However... He does put the comparison defining clause "as infants in Christ" to define "people of the flesh." Now, we know from Paul's use of "brothers" that he is intending to address believers. What he says to them is important: They are certainly not acting like believers.
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
It seems clear that some are just set to resist the truth, no matter what.
This paragraph explains it all.
Notice that Paul is using "as," as in "I could not address you as spiritual people." In English when "like" or "as" is used it is called simile. It is a linguistic tool of comparison. So, Paul is comparing the "Brothers" (so, believers) in the church of Corinth as "people of the flesh" (so, non-believers). However... He does put the comparison defining clause "as infants in Christ" to define "people of the flesh." Now, we know from Paul's use of "brothers" that he is intending to address believers. What he says to them is important: They are certainly not acting like believers.
g
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
It seems clear that some are just set to resist the truth, no matter what.
This paragraph explains it all.
Notice that Paul is using "as," as in "I could not address you as spiritual people." In English when "like" or "as" is used it is called simile. It is a linguistic tool of comparison. So, Paul is comparing the "Brothers" (so, believers) in the church of Corinth as "people of the flesh" (so, non-believers). However... He does put the comparison defining clause "as infants in Christ" to define "people of the flesh." Now, we know from Paul's use of "brothers" that he is intending to address believers. What he says to them is important: They are certainly not acting like believers.
The part that is confusing you is the word ' spiritual ' instead of this referring to a Mature believer. You believe I guess that ' spiritual refers to a person who has The Holy spirit? am I right ?
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
The part that is confusing you is the word ' spiritual ' instead of this referring to a Mature believer. You believe I guess that ' spiritual refers to a person who has The Holy spirit? am I right ?
Paul literally tells these Carnal ones that ' Don't you know you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you ' So why would he not be able to address them unto ' spiritual ' if ' spiritual means having The Holy Spirt ?
 
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