The Natural man

[Barry Johnson]

This is absurd. First, I have not argued that the passage says anything about regeneration preceding faith. So, do not put words into my mouth. Second, the text clearly says--as I have demonstrated--that in 1 Cor 2 Paul does argue an unbeliever cannot understand the things of God. The reason I went through the effort of explaining it to you is that you so negligently dismissed it.

The text allows you to make a certain case from chapter 3 while not allowing you to make the same case from chapter 2.

The Archangel

You seem to think the term spiritual ' means a believer. But that's not how Paul uses it. The term ' spiritual ' refers to a Mature believer.
notice right after chapter 2 ( same context)
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
Can you see the two here ? He cannot speak to them as to Mature ( Spiritual ) but as to Carnal . This is the same point Paul is making in 1 cor 2.6
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect( MATURE ) : yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
So there is some ' Wisdom ' He cannot share as unto mature ( spiritual ) with These carnal believers . The remedy is associated with behaviour as to why they are not growing in understanding.

 

[The Archangel]

You seem to think the term spiritual ' means a believer. But that's not how Paul uses it. The term ' spiritual ' refers to a Mature believer.
notice right after chapter 2 ( same context)

Actually, you're assuming that "spiritual" refers to a mature believer. I've demonstrated what the text says it means. There is a difference. Again, you can't just go about making assertions without arguing your point from the text.

He cannot speak to them as to Mature ( Spiritual ) but as to Carnal . This is the same point Paul is making in 1 cor 2.6

So there is some ' Wisdom ' He cannot share as unto mature ( spiritual ) with These carnal believers . The remedy is associated with behaviour as to why they are not growing in understanding.

The context is not the same as Paul's argument has progressed from the beginning of chapter 2 as it moves into chapter 3. Also, τέλειος (mature) and πνευματικός (spiritual) are not synonyms. What is more, Paul's use of ψυχικός (natural) in 1 Cor 2:14 is what is contrasted with πνευματικός in the immediate context of 1 Cor 2:15--clearly showing that the "natural" man is a non-believer (again, because he or she cannot and will not accept the things of God). So, in this instance, your argument fails not only because of lexical usage; it also fails upon the rules of grammar.

When you study Paul's writing deeply (as there are 13 books, and so an ample opportunity) you find that Paul argues linearly (unlike John, for instance, who argues in a circle.... or two.... or three). Paul sets up his statements of chapter 3 with what he says in chapter 2. But, make no mistake, he is not making the same argument in both places. Paul tends to argue from left to right in a down-ward stepping way. Like this:

Point 1

because of this, that, and the other...
​

Point 2

because of this, that, and the other...
​

and so on...

​

His use of γαρ and the adversative particle αλλα demonstrate his line of argumentation. And so, his argument progresses from chapter 2 to chapter 3; he is not engaging in a re-hash.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Paul literally tells these Carnal ones that ' Don't you know you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you ' So why would he not be able to address them unto ' spiritual ' if ' spiritual means having The Holy Spirt ?

May I ask: Where precisely does he say this?

The Archangel

 

[Barry Johnson]

The context is not the same as Paul's argument has progressed from the beginning of chapter 2 as it moves into chapter 3. Also, τέλειος (mature) and πνευματικός (spiritual) are not synonyms. What is more, Paul's use of ψυχικός (natural) in 1 Cor 2:14 is what is contrasted with πνευματικός in the immediate context of 1 Cor 2:15--clearly showing that the "natural" man is a non-believer (again, because he or she cannot and will not accept the things of God). So, in this instance, your argument fails not only because of lexical usage; it also fails upon the rules of grammar.

When you study Paul's writing deeply (as there are 13 books, and so an ample opportunity) you find that Paul argues linearly (unlike John, for instance, who argues in a circle.... or two.... or three). Paul sets up his statements of chapter 3 with what he says in chapter 2. But, make no mistake, he is not making the same argument in both places. Paul tends to argue from left to right in a down-ward stepping way. Like this:

Point 1

because of this, that, and the other...
​

Point 2

because of this, that, and the other...
​

and so on...

​

His use of γαρ and the adversative particle αλλα demonstrate his line of argumentation. And so, his argument progresses from chapter 2 to chapter 3; he is not engaging in a re-hash.

The Archangel

The context is wisdom . Why you ask ? because The pagan corinthians relied on wisdom . Paul uses the word wisdom over and over . Go back to start of the book and count how many times Paul refers to Wisdom . Later Paul is accused of ..10For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible. 2 cor 10.10
Paul has to argue for his rights , his apostleship and that although they had many teachers but not many fathers etc.
This is the most problematic, carnal Church in the new testament..The point is about WISDOM in chapters 1.2.3
He establishes why He is writing ( aside from the issues brought up in the letters to him )
1 cor 1
5That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Notice .
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18¶For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20¶Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Wisdom, wisdom, wisdom.
chap 2 WISDOM !!!
1¶And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9¶But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

More wisdom !!
13¶Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

And without breaking away from the theme and establishing who he is addressing all a long

16¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The context is wisdom . Why you ask ? because The pagan corinthians relied on wisdom . Paul uses the word wisdom over and over . Go back to start of the book and count how many times Paul refers to Wisdom . Later Paul is accused of ..10For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible. 2 cor 10.10
Paul has to argue for his rights , his apostleship and that although they had many teachers but not many fathers etc.
This is the most problematic, carnal Church in the new testament..The point is about WISDOM in chapters 1.2.3
He establishes why He is writing ( aside from the issues brought up in the letters to him )
1 cor 1
5That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Notice .
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18¶For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20¶Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Wisdom, wisdom, wisdom.
chap 2 WISDOM !!!
1¶And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9¶But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

More wisdom !!
13¶Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

And without breaking away from the theme and establishing who he is addressing all a long

16¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Please explain 1 cor 2 verse 15 please in context.

 

[The Archangel]

The context is wisdom . Why you ask ? because The pagan corinthians relied on wisdom . Paul uses the word wisdom over and over . Go back to start of the book and count how many times Paul refers to Wisdom . Later Paul is accused of ..10For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible. 2 cor 10.10
Paul has to argue for his rights , his apostleship and that although they had many teachers but not many fathers etc.
This is the most problematic, carnal Church in the new testament..The point is about WISDOM in chapters 1.2.3
He establishes why He is writing ( aside from the issues brought up in the letters to him )
1 cor 1
5That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Notice .
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18¶For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20¶Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Wisdom, wisdom, wisdom.
chap 2 WISDOM !!!
1¶And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9¶But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

More wisdom !!
13¶Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

And without breaking away from the theme and establishing who he is addressing all a long

16¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Again, I have a Bible (or two) and can look up any passage you wish to reference. Perhaps spend more time arguing your point(s).

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Please explain 1 cor 2 verse 15 please in context.

And why should I do so???

The Archangel

 

[Barry Johnson]

Please explain 1 cor 2 verse 15 please in context.

None of this is about Lost people within this church. The only reference to the lost is that they deem the preaching of the cross foolishness..But of course they did with Paul in Acts 17 for example. Preaching the Gosepl isn't a acceptable position in society ..But there is nothing about lost people not being able to understand the wisdom Paul speaks to the mature ( 1 cor 2 . 6 ).
Paul is simply saying what man knows the mind of God

And why should I do so???

The Archangel

Because it doesn't fit what you are saying does it?

 

[Barry Johnson]

May I ask: Where precisely does he say this?

The Archangel

1 cor 3 . 16
16¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
The same Carnal believers he has been speaking to all along .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Again, I have a Bible (or two) and can look up any passage you wish to reference. Perhaps spend more time arguing your point(s).

The Archangel

A similar point is being made by the Author of Hebrews ( 5 )
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Jesus makes the same point
John 16.12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Paul is saying a similar point . The reason why they are struggling to bear Paul's words is because at the moment they are not able. They still need milk. The mature are able . They may have liked appollos dynamic speaking , but Paul they are struggling with..They want the 'wisdom ' . they knew of great speaker s and orators , The rhetoric But because of their behaviour and division they were not able to progress into the deeper ' wisdom ' The things Paul wants to impart .

 

[Barry Johnson]

A similar point is being made by the Author of Hebrews ( 5 )
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Jesus makes the same point
John 16.12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Paul is saying a similar point . The reason why they are struggling to bear Paul's words is because at the moment they are not able. They still need milk. The mature are able . They may have liked appollos dynamic speaking , but Paul they are struggling with..They want the 'wisdom ' . they knew of great speaker s and orators , The rhetoric But because of their behaviour and division they were not able to progress into the deeper ' wisdom ' The things Paul wants to impart .

At no time is Paul suddenly deviating on these lines to give a quick Line about unbelievers not being able to receive wisdom and the things of God . clearly in context this is about God able to give believers the things of God because they have The Spirit able to Give the things of God . God isn't going around giving people the things of God unless they have the spirit of God ..But they are able to believe the Gosepl when it is giving. This is about further deeper things that believers can receive but because they are being carnal etc they are not able to bear the wisdom .

 

[The Archangel]

None of this is about Lost people within this church. The only reference to the lost is that they deem the preaching of the cross foolishness..But of course they did with Paul in Acts 17 for example. Preaching the Gosepl isn't a acceptable position in society ..But there is nothing about lost people not being able to understand the wisdom Paul speaks to the mature ( 1 cor 2 . 6 ).
Paul is simply saying what man knows the mind of God

Paul is not at all saying "man knows the mind of God." He is saying those who have the spirit of God know the mind of God. He is in no way, shape, or form saying that all mankind knows God.

Because it doesn't fit what you are saying does it?

Of course it does. I'm not interested in moving to a new discussion when we can't even agree on terms. You seem to be determined to either re-write Paul or so twist his meaning that it bears no resemblance to the printed word. Again, if you want to have a discussion that is more in-line with biblical and systematic theology, that's fine. But what we are engaged in here (at least I am) is an exegetical discussion. You seem not to like what Greek words mean or what verb tenses reflect, etc., or what Paul has written.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Paul literally tells these Carnal ones that ' Don't you know you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you ' So why would he not be able to address them unto ' spiritual ' if ' spiritual means having The Holy Spirt ?

1 cor 3 . 16
16¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
The same Carnal believers he has been speaking to all along .

Notice, however, as I have been showing, that the discussion changes in chapter 3. Paul uses καγω, a compound word of και and εγω, to mark off--textually--a new section of argument. While it is related to what came before, it is not the same argument.

As I have stated before, in chapter 3 Paul is regarding the Corinthian believers as infants in Christ (perhaps even looking like unbelievers). But, in chapter 2, when he says "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." he is stating a principal in support of his previous argument.

So, textually, you are free to refer to the Corinthians he is addressing as "believers" in chapter 3. But, the point his is making in chapter 2 is that if you do not have the spirit of God, you do not and cannot (note both words--it is an issue of will and willful rebellion against the things of God) understand the things of God and are--therefore--a non-believer. He is not directly accusing any of the Corinthians of being non-believers, but the statement of the principal bears the weight of "if the shoe fits."

The Archangel

 

[Dave G]

The bible does not teach that a "carnal christian" exists.

" And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 ).

There is such a thing as a "carnal" Christian ( babe in Christ ), and there is such a thing as a spiritual Christian ( mature believer ).
There are also natural men ( unbelievers and "tares" ) and spiritual men ( believers ) who have the mind of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

There are carnal minds that are at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-9 ) and there are spiritual minds that hearken to and understand His word.

The "carnal" Christian is not yet grown and cannot handle the meat of the word, but only the milk.
They can and often do walk as men, and exhibit behaviour that makes them, at times, a mess as believers.

Example:

The man at Corinth who had his father's wife ( step mom ).
Later on, he sorrowed to repentance in 2 Corinthians.

Believers take time to grow in knowledge and grace;
It doesn't come overnight.

 

[JonC]

He is not directly accusing any of the Corinthians of being non-believers, but the statement of the principal bears the weight of "if the shoe fits."

Exactly. Paul speaks the same way in Romans (the "we" are the brothers who have an obligation to live by the Spirit because if we live by the flesh we will die).

I think this is the same thing when Jesus told His audience that if they do not forgive men God will not forgive them their sins. Or Paul's words in Galatians (to the Christians) that if they walk in darkness they perish.

 

[Barry Johnson]

" And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 ).

There is such a thing as a "carnal" Christian ( babe in Christ ), and there is such a thing as a spiritual Christian ( mature believer ).
There are also natural men ( unbelievers and "tares" ) and spiritual men ( believers ) who have the mind of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

There are carnal minds that are at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-9 ) and there are spiritual minds that hearken to and understand His word.

The "carnal" Christian is not yet grown and cannot handle the meat of the word, but only the milk.
They can and often do walk as men, and exhibit behaviour that makes them, at times, a mess as believers.

Example:

The man at Corinth who had his father's wife ( step mom ).
Later on, he sorrowed to repentance in 2 Corinthians.

Believers take time to grow in knowledge and grace;
It doesn't come overnight.

Again all Paul is saying is that he cannot speak unto them as mature believer's but babies . Thats it .
verse 2.16
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
makes sense if the ' spiritual ' is a mature believer , not ' a man that has The Holy Spirit. Because its obvious babes in Christ cannot judge all things .
I think what clouds the issue is the T in TULIP . Most assume this and go looking for proof to confirm this . I'm not saying lost people know the mind of God . Paul is saying having the Holy Spirit we can ! or may know the things of God . But clearly not every Believer discerns things . Babes in Christ don't.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Again all Paul is saying is that he cannot speak unto them as mature believer's but babies . Thats it .
verse 2.16
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
makes sense if the ' spiritual ' is a mature believer , not ' a man that has The Holy Spirit. Because its obvious babes in Christ cannot judge all things .
I think what clouds the issue is the T in TULIP . Most assume this and go looking for proof to confirm this . I'm not saying lost people know the mind of God . Paul is saying having the Holy Spirit we can ! or may know the things of God . But clearly not every Believer discerns things . Babes in Christ don't.

It takes time for a baby to understand mature things .

 

[Barry Johnson]

It takes time for a baby to understand mature things .

" And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 ).

There is such a thing as a "carnal" Christian ( babe in Christ ), and there is such a thing as a spiritual Christian ( mature believer ).
There are also natural men ( unbelievers and "tares" ) and spiritual men ( believers ) who have the mind of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

There are carnal minds that are at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-9 ) and there are spiritual minds that hearken to and understand His word.

The "carnal" Christian is not yet grown and cannot handle the meat of the word, but only the milk.
They can and often do walk as men, and exhibit behaviour that makes them, at times, a mess as believers.

Example:

The man at Corinth who had his father's wife ( step mom ).
Later on, he sorrowed to repentance in 2 Corinthians.

Believers take time to grow in knowledge and grace;
It doesn't come overnight.

All Paul is basically saying is that babies cannot bear the meat . To mature requires understanding the meat . The only reference to lost people is when Paul says that they deem the preaching foolish . Of course Paul doesn't need to make a point about lost people not understanding mature wisdom . that makes no sense and is a statement of the obvious . What's clear from the bible is that a lost person can understand the Gospel inspite of the preaching of it foolishness for some .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Notice, however, as I have been showing, that the discussion changes in chapter 3. Paul uses καγω, a compound word of και and εγω, to mark off--textually--a new section of argument. While it is related to what came before, it is not the same argument.

As I have stated before, in chapter 3 Paul is regarding the Corinthian believers as infants in Christ (perhaps even looking like unbelievers). But, in chapter 2, when he says "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." he is stating a principal in support of his previous argument.

So, textually, you are free to refer to the Corinthians he is addressing as "believers" in chapter 3. But, the point his is making in chapter 2 is that if you do not have the spirit of God, you do not and cannot (note both words--it is an issue of will and willful rebellion against the things of God) understand the things of God and are--therefore--a non-believer. He is not directly accusing any of the Corinthians of being non-believers, but the statement of the principal bears the weight of "if the shoe fits."

The Archangel

Galatians 6 .1 . The same word ' spiritual '. Again the context is clearly talking about a mature believer here .
1¶Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Paul is not at all saying "man knows the mind of God." He is saying those who have the spirit of God know the mind of God. He is in no way, shape, or form saying that all mankind knows God.



Of course it does. I'm not interested in moving to a new discussion when we can't even agree on terms. You seem to be determined to either re-write Paul or so twist his meaning that it bears no resemblance to the printed word. Again, if you want to have a discussion that is more in-line with biblical and systematic theology, that's fine. But what we are engaged in here (at least I am) is an exegetical discussion. You seem not to like what Greek words mean or what verb tenses reflect, etc., or what Paul has written.

The Archangel

I'm not saying the word spiritual is a synonym. I'm saying that the way in which Paul is using the term in context is talking about the Mature . The one who is Governed by the spirit . in the sense of the one who is not behaving carnal .