The Natural man

[Iconoclast]

" And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 ).

There is such a thing as a "carnal" Christian ( babe in Christ ), and there is such a thing as a spiritual Christian ( mature believer ).
There are also natural men ( unbelievers and "tares" ) and spiritual men ( believers ) who have the mind of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

There are carnal minds that are at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-9 ) and there are spiritual minds that hearken to and understand His word.

The "carnal" Christian is not yet grown and cannot handle the meat of the word, but only the milk.
They can and often do walk as men, and exhibit behaviour that makes them, at times, a mess as believers.

Example:

The man at Corinth who had his father's wife ( step mom ).
Later on, he sorrowed to repentance in 2 Corinthians.

Believers take time to grow in knowledge and grace;
It doesn't come overnight.

No there is not.
The carnal mind in Roman's leads to death.rom8:6
Simply put, Paul is rebuking them for not behaving as those who have been bought with a price.
They were in this thing acting as mere men, unsaved natural men, when that is not who a believer is.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No there is not.
The carnal mind in Roman's leads to death.rom8:6
Simply put, Paul is rebuking them for not behaving as those who have been bought with a price.
They were in this thing acting as mere men, unsaved natural men, when that is not who a believer is.

Yes the ' carnal mind ' leads to death . Death in every area of our lifes . The wages of sin is death . Praise God we are now dead to sin and alive to God . But we can still act like unbelievers. That's why Paul warns that we should bring our body into Subjection . No bringing our body into subjection causes the issues . Paul addressed this in Rom 7 .
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21¶I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No there is not.
The carnal mind in Roman's leads to death.rom8:6
Simply put, Paul is rebuking them for not behaving as those who have been bought with a price.
They were in this thing acting as mere men, unsaved natural men, when that is not who a believer is.

So we can act like mere men . We can remain babies. we can remain carnal . The reasons can be that we are not able to hear the things of God by not growing. This doesn't mean we are not saved or in danger of losing salvation..It just means our lives can be shipwrecked, we can be disqualified from the ministry etc. Be saved as by fire. Have no rewards etc. This because of carnality and not being able to bear the wisdom of God .

 

[Barry Johnson]

So we can act like mere men . We can remain babies. we can remain carnal . The reasons can be that we are not able to hear the things of God by not growing. This doesn't mean we are not saved or in danger of losing salvation..It just means our lives can be shipwrecked, we can be disqualified from the ministry etc. Be saved as by fire. Have no rewards etc. This because of carnality and not being able to bear the wisdom of God .

Otherwise it means that all believes are perfect and mature and can't be judged of no man and judge all things. Do these at corinthians look like they can judge all things?

 

[Yeshua1]

Is the ' natural man ' a reference to a lost person or a ' Carnal Christian ' ?
1 cor 2
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Unsaved person, as carnal Christian is a saved person who is acting as if not saved!

 

[Barry Johnson]

Unsaved person, as carnal Christian is a saved person who is acting as if not saved!

Why do you think Paul needs to tell save people that they don't understand the deeper wisdom of God ?

 

[Yeshua1]

Why do you think Paul needs to tell save people that they don't understand the deeper wisdom of God ?

he wanted them to grow up in their faith!

 

[Van]

Is the ' natural man ' a reference to a lost person or a ' Carnal Christian ' ?
1 cor 2
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Barry I have not read this thread, but I suspect it is filled with the false assertions of Calvinism.

1) Here are the places where the Greek word translated as "natural" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 appear in scripture.

1Corinthians 2:14
But natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

James 3:15
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, demonic.

Jude 1:19
These are the ones who cause divisions, natural men, not having the Spirit.​

So the "natural" person does not have the Spirit, they are not indwelt, thus they do not have the "Helper" and therefore cannot understand "spiritual solid food" because those spiritual things can only be understood with the help of the Spirit. The sequence is also supplied from scripture, we all start out "natural" but some of us are born anew and indwelt, thus "raised spiritually."

So while the above seems obvious to me, another verse sheds even more light, 1 Corinthians 3:1 which comes just a few verses after 1 Corinthians 2:14. Here is the verse:

1Co 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.​

Obviously "spiritual men" refers not just to those born anew, but also as those who have grown up in the faith such that they are spiritually mature and are able to understand "spiritual solid food." However, neither "men of flesh" nor "infants in Christ" can understand "spiritual solid food" but both can understand "spiritual milk" which includes the fundamentals of the gospel.

This is the sticking point with Calvinist doctrine, they must deny this verse teaches "men of flesh" i.e. natural people without the Spirit, can understand the gospel because of their bogus "T" doctrine. When asked why did Paul speak "as to men of flesh" they deflect and say Paul was speaking to "infants in Christ." Just another verse that must be ignored to accept false doctrine, such as the "T."

 

[Barry Johnson]

he wanted them to grow up in their faith!

Sorry I meant . Why would Paul want to tell them in one verse that the ' unsaved man ' does not understand the deeper wisdom of God ? would it make more sense if the natural man ( carnal Christian) needs telling the reason he is not able to bear the meat of the word its because of his behaviour. Fix the behaviour and then you will hear and ready for the wisdom Paul speaks among the mature ( 1 cor 2.6

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry I have not read this thread, but I suspect it is filled with the false assertions of Calvinism.

1) Here are the places where the Greek word translated as "natural" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 appear in scripture.

1Corinthians 2:14
But natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

James 3:15
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, demonic.

Jude 1:19
These are the ones who cause divisions, natural men, not having the Spirit.​

So the "natural" person does not have the Spirit, they are not indwelt, thus they do not have the "Helper" and therefore cannot understand "spiritual solid food" because those spiritual things can only be understood with the help of the Spirit. The sequence is also supplied from scripture, we all start out "natural" but some of us are born anew and indwelt, thus "raised spiritually."

So while the above seems obvious to me, another verse sheds even more light, 1 Corinthians 3:1 which comes just a few verses after 1 Corinthians 2:14. Here is the verse:

1Co 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.​

Obviously "spiritual men" refers not just to those born anew, but also as those who have grown up in the faith such that they are spiritually mature and are able to understand "spiritual solid food." However, neither "men of flesh" nor "infants in Christ" can understand "spiritual solid food" but both can understand "spiritual milk" which includes the fundamentals of the gospel.

This is the sticking point with Calvinist doctrine, they must deny this verse teaches "men of flesh" i.e. natural people without the Spirit, can understand the gospel because of their bogus "T" doctrine. When asked why did Paul speak "as to men of flesh" they deflect and say Paul was speaking to "infants in Christ." Just another verse that must be ignored to accept false doctrine, such as the "T."

In those verses above about the ' natural body ' isn't that talking about a saved believer ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry I have not read this thread, but I suspect it is filled with the false assertions of Calvinism.

1) Here are the places where the Greek word translated as "natural" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 appear in scripture.

1Corinthians 2:14
But natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

James 3:15
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, demonic.

Jude 1:19
These are the ones who cause divisions, natural men, not having the Spirit.​

So the "natural" person does not have the Spirit, they are not indwelt, thus they do not have the "Helper" and therefore cannot understand "spiritual solid food" because those spiritual things can only be understood with the help of the Spirit. The sequence is also supplied from scripture, we all start out "natural" but some of us are born anew and indwelt, thus "raised spiritually."

So while the above seems obvious to me, another verse sheds even more light, 1 Corinthians 3:1 which comes just a few verses after 1 Corinthians 2:14. Here is the verse:

1Co 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.​

Obviously "spiritual men" refers not just to those born anew, but also as those who have grown up in the faith such that they are spiritually mature and are able to understand "spiritual solid food." However, neither "men of flesh" nor "infants in Christ" can understand "spiritual solid food" but both can understand "spiritual milk" which includes the fundamentals of the gospel.

This is the sticking point with Calvinist doctrine, they must deny this verse teaches "men of flesh" i.e. natural people without the Spirit, can understand the gospel because of their bogus "T" doctrine. When asked why did Paul speak "as to men of flesh" they deflect and say Paul was speaking to "infants in Christ." Just another verse that must be ignored to accept false doctrine, such as the "T."

So all those verses you state above in 1 cor 15 show that the word natural is used towards the body of a saved man . Then you go to Jude which actually uses a different word ' sensual ' with context ' not having the spirit . No confusion there .

 

[Barry Johnson]

So all those verses you state above in 1 cor 15 show that the word natural is used towards the body of a saved man . Then you go to Jude which actually uses a different word ' sensual ' with context ' not having the spirit . No confusion there .

I think Paul needs to explain . Hey unbelievers don't understand deep wisdom of God . Isn't that obvious? If your saying that they cannot understand or believe the Gospel then that's a little different. But it has to be things that Paul is able to speak among the mature ( 1 cor 2 .6 ) which is a little odd for Paul to randomly drop in one verse . ' hey unbelievers can't understand the deeper things of God " ??

 

[Yeshua1]

Barry I have not read this thread, but I suspect it is filled with the false assertions of Calvinism.

1) Here are the places where the Greek word translated as "natural" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 appear in scripture.

1Corinthians 2:14
But natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

1Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

James 3:15
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, demonic.

Jude 1:19
These are the ones who cause divisions, natural men, not having the Spirit.​

So the "natural" person does not have the Spirit, they are not indwelt, thus they do not have the "Helper" and therefore cannot understand "spiritual solid food" because those spiritual things can only be understood with the help of the Spirit. The sequence is also supplied from scripture, we all start out "natural" but some of us are born anew and indwelt, thus "raised spiritually."

So while the above seems obvious to me, another verse sheds even more light, 1 Corinthians 3:1 which comes just a few verses after 1 Corinthians 2:14. Here is the verse:

1Co 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.​

Obviously "spiritual men" refers not just to those born anew, but also as those who have grown up in the faith such that they are spiritually mature and are able to understand "spiritual solid food." However, neither "men of flesh" nor "infants in Christ" can understand "spiritual solid food" but both can understand "spiritual milk" which includes the fundamentals of the gospel.

This is the sticking point with Calvinist doctrine, they must deny this verse teaches "men of flesh" i.e. natural people without the Spirit, can understand the gospel because of their bogus "T" doctrine. When asked why did Paul speak "as to men of flesh" they deflect and say Paul was speaking to "infants in Christ." Just another verse that must be ignored to accept false doctrine, such as the "T."

The unsaved can hear and read the bible, but until and unless the Holy Spirit enables to see perceive it, it is just like reading any other book to them!

 

[Van]

In those verses above about the ' natural body ' isn't that talking about a saved believer ?

No, 1 Cor. 15:44 is talking about the first state (a natural unregenerate condition) then a "raised" or altered "spiritual state." Only the altered spiritual state is saved and indwelt.

So all those verses you state above in 1 cor 15 show that the word natural is used towards the body of a saved man . Then you go to Jude which actually uses a different word ' sensual ' with context ' not having the spirit . No confusion there .

No the actual Greek word is the same in all the verses, just different forms. Your translation apparently went with "sensual" but the KJV uses "natural" 4 times and "sensual" two times. In all cases it refers to our unregenerate state before being "indwelt."

 

[Van]

The unsaved can hear and read the bible, but until and unless the Holy Spirit enables to see perceive it, it is just like reading any other book to them!

Y1 continues to make up fiction and post it non-stop. He diverts discussion of scripture.

Unbiblical errors of Calvinism's claims above:
1) Some of the unsaved (soil #1 of Matthew 13) cannot hear or understand the gospel, they suffer from total spiritual inability because their heart is hardened.
2) The rest of the unsaved (soils #2,3and 4) can see, perceive, receive, accept, and wholly trust in the gospel.
3) Since the Holy Spirit inspired the gospel, every time an unsaved person is led to Christ through or on the basis of scripture, their understanding was "enabled" by the Holy Spirit.
4) If the bogus "T" of the TULIP were valid, Jesus would have not needed to speak in parables, Matthew 13.
5) If the bogus "T" of the TULIP were valid, God would not have needed to harden the hearts of Jews in Romans 11.
6) If the bogus "T" of the TULIP were valid, Paul would not have spoken "as to men of flesh" because "men of flesh" natural people could not understand "spiritual milk." 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No, 1 Cor. 15:44 is talking about the first state (a natural unregenerate condition) then a "raised" or altered "spiritual state." Only the altered spiritual state is saved and indwelt.


No the actual Greek word is the same in all the verses, just different forms. Your translation apparently went with "sensual" but the KJV uses "natural" 4 times and "sensual" two times. In all cases it refers to our unregenerate state before being "indwelt."

What I mean is Paul is talking about a saved persons body which will put on the new body . So we still have a 'Natural body as a Christian.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No, 1 Cor. 15:44 is talking about the first state (a natural unregenerate condition) then a "raised" or altered "spiritual state." Only the altered spiritual state is saved and indwelt.


No the actual Greek word is the same in all the verses, just different forms. Your translation apparently went with "sensual" but the KJV uses "natural" 4 times and "sensual" two times. In all cases it refers to our unregenerate state before being "indwelt."

OK but the context shows the meaning. ( there is not just one meaning of ' natural '
And this is clearly talking about the Natural body Of a believer which will be raised a spiritual body .
42¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46¶Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[Barry Johnson]

What I mean is Paul is talking about a saved persons body which will put on the new body . So we still have a 'Natural body as a Christian.

The unsaved can hear and read the bible, but until and unless the Holy Spirit enables to see perceive it, it is just like reading any other book to them!

What verses are you referring to ?

 

[Van]

OK but the context shows the meaning. ( there is not just one meaning of ' natural '
And this is clearly talking about the Natural body Of a believer which will be raised a spiritual body .
42¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46¶Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

I agree the lexicon provides more than one meaning for the Greek word. And I agree the context shows which of the possible meanings is intended. But I believe Paul always used the word with the intended meaning of an unregenerate, unsaved un-indwelt person. This is not talking about the natural body of a believer, it is talking about the natural body of all humankind, sown in dishonor (made a sinner) sown in weakness (the flesh is weak) yet for those saved, raised in glory, raised in power, raised a spiritual body. Again I point to the sequence, first natural which applies to all, then spiritual, which applies only to the saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

OK but the context shows the meaning. ( there is not just one meaning of ' natural '
And this is clearly talking about the Natural body Of a believer which will be raised a spiritual body .
42¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46¶Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

van appears tio be stating that natural man refers to the lost man in those passages, but how can unsaved be receiving a glorified Body?