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Featured The Natural man

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jun 30, 2020.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No there is not.
    The carnal mind in Roman's leads to death.rom8:6
    Simply put, Paul is rebuking them for not behaving as those who have been bought with a price.
    They were in this thing acting as mere men, unsaved natural men, when that is not who a believer is.
     
    #61 Iconoclast, Jul 1, 2020
  2. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Yes the ' carnal mind ' leads to death . Death in every area of our lifes . The wages of sin is death . Praise God we are now dead to sin and alive to God . But we can still act like unbelievers. That's why Paul warns that we should bring our body into Subjection . No bringing our body into subjection causes the issues . Paul addressed this in Rom 7 .
    14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    21¶I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
     
    #62 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    So we can act like mere men . We can remain babies. we can remain carnal . The reasons can be that we are not able to hear the things of God by not growing. This doesn't mean we are not saved or in danger of losing salvation..It just means our lives can be shipwrecked, we can be disqualified from the ministry etc. Be saved as by fire. Have no rewards etc. This because of carnality and not being able to bear the wisdom of God .
     
    #63 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Otherwise it means that all believes are perfect and mature and can't be judged of no man and judge all things. Do these at corinthians look like they can judge all things?
     
    #64 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Unsaved person, as carnal Christian is a saved person who is acting as if not saved!
     
    #65 Yeshua1, Jul 1, 2020
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think Paul needs to tell save people that they don't understand the deeper wisdom of God ?
     
    #66 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    he wanted them to grow up in their faith!
     
    #67 Yeshua1, Jul 1, 2020
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Barry I have not read this thread, but I suspect it is filled with the false assertions of Calvinism.

    1) Here are the places where the Greek word translated as "natural" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 appear in scripture.

    1Corinthians 2:14
    But natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

    1Corinthians 15:44
    it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    1Corinthians 15:46
    However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

    James 3:15
    This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, demonic.

    Jude 1:19
    These are the ones who cause divisions, natural men, not having the Spirit.​

    So the "natural" person does not have the Spirit, they are not indwelt, thus they do not have the "Helper" and therefore cannot understand "spiritual solid food" because those spiritual things can only be understood with the help of the Spirit. The sequence is also supplied from scripture, we all start out "natural" but some of us are born anew and indwelt, thus "raised spiritually."

    So while the above seems obvious to me, another verse sheds even more light, 1 Corinthians 3:1 which comes just a few verses after 1 Corinthians 2:14. Here is the verse:

    1Co 3:1
    And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. ​

    Obviously "spiritual men" refers not just to those born anew, but also as those who have grown up in the faith such that they are spiritually mature and are able to understand "spiritual solid food." However, neither "men of flesh" nor "infants in Christ" can understand "spiritual solid food" but both can understand "spiritual milk" which includes the fundamentals of the gospel.

    This is the sticking point with Calvinist doctrine, they must deny this verse teaches "men of flesh" i.e. natural people without the Spirit, can understand the gospel because of their bogus "T" doctrine. When asked why did Paul speak "as to men of flesh" they deflect and say Paul was speaking to "infants in Christ." Just another verse that must be ignored to accept false doctrine, such as the "T."
     
    #68 Van, Jul 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I meant . Why would Paul want to tell them in one verse that the ' unsaved man ' does not understand the deeper wisdom of God ? would it make more sense if the natural man ( carnal Christian) needs telling the reason he is not able to bear the meat of the word its because of his behaviour. Fix the behaviour and then you will hear and ready for the wisdom Paul speaks among the mature ( 1 cor 2.6
     
    #69 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    In those verses above about the ' natural body ' isn't that talking about a saved believer ?
     
    #70 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    So all those verses you state above in 1 cor 15 show that the word natural is used towards the body of a saved man . Then you go to Jude which actually uses a different word ' sensual ' with context ' not having the spirit . No confusion there .
     
    #71 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I think Paul needs to explain . Hey unbelievers don't understand deep wisdom of God . Isn't that obvious? If your saying that they cannot understand or believe the Gospel then that's a little different. But it has to be things that Paul is able to speak among the mature ( 1 cor 2 .6 ) which is a little odd for Paul to randomly drop in one verse . ' hey unbelievers can't understand the deeper things of God " ??
     
    #72 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The unsaved can hear and read the bible, but until and unless the Holy Spirit enables to see perceive it, it is just like reading any other book to them!
     
    #73 Yeshua1, Jul 1, 2020
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No, 1 Cor. 15:44 is talking about the first state (a natural unregenerate condition) then a "raised" or altered "spiritual state." Only the altered spiritual state is saved and indwelt.
    No the actual Greek word is the same in all the verses, just different forms. Your translation apparently went with "sensual" but the KJV uses "natural" 4 times and "sensual" two times. In all cases it refers to our unregenerate state before being "indwelt."
     
    #74 Van, Jul 1, 2020
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Y1 continues to make up fiction and post it non-stop. He diverts discussion of scripture.

    Unbiblical errors of Calvinism's claims above:
    1) Some of the unsaved (soil #1 of Matthew 13) cannot hear or understand the gospel, they suffer from total spiritual inability because their heart is hardened.
    2) The rest of the unsaved (soils #2,3and 4) can see, perceive, receive, accept, and wholly trust in the gospel.
    3) Since the Holy Spirit inspired the gospel, every time an unsaved person is led to Christ through or on the basis of scripture, their understanding was "enabled" by the Holy Spirit.
    4) If the bogus "T" of the TULIP were valid, Jesus would have not needed to speak in parables, Matthew 13.
    5) If the bogus "T" of the TULIP were valid, God would not have needed to harden the hearts of Jews in Romans 11.
    6) If the bogus "T" of the TULIP were valid, Paul would not have spoken "as to men of flesh" because "men of flesh" natural people could not understand "spiritual milk." 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.
     
    #75 Van, Jul 1, 2020
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  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    What I mean is Paul is talking about a saved persons body which will put on the new body . So we still have a 'Natural body as a Christian.
     
    #76 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    OK but the context shows the meaning. ( there is not just one meaning of ' natural '
    And this is clearly talking about the Natural body Of a believer which will be raised a spiritual body .
    42¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46¶Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
     
    #77 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    What verses are you referring to ?
     
    #78 Barry Johnson, Jul 1, 2020
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I agree the lexicon provides more than one meaning for the Greek word. And I agree the context shows which of the possible meanings is intended. But I believe Paul always used the word with the intended meaning of an unregenerate, unsaved un-indwelt person. This is not talking about the natural body of a believer, it is talking about the natural body of all humankind, sown in dishonor (made a sinner) sown in weakness (the flesh is weak) yet for those saved, raised in glory, raised in power, raised a spiritual body. Again I point to the sequence, first natural which applies to all, then spiritual, which applies only to the saved.
     
    #79 Van, Jul 1, 2020
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    van appears tio be stating that natural man refers to the lost man in those passages, but how can unsaved be receiving a glorified Body?
     
    #80 Yeshua1, Jul 1, 2020
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