The Natural man

[Barry Johnson]

I agree the lexicon provides more than one meaning for the Greek word. And I agree the context shows which of the possible meanings is intended. But I believe Paul always used the word with the intended meaning of an unregenerate, unsaved un-indwelt person. This is not talking about the natural body of a believer, it is talking about the natural body of all humankind, sown in dishonor (made a sinner) sown in weakness (the flesh is weak) yet for those saved, raised in glory, raised in power, raised a spiritual body. Again I point to the sequence, first natural which applies to all, then spiritual, which applies only to the saved.

Also the term 'Natural 'is not a negative term .like here in Rom 1.
26¶For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the NATURAL use into that which is against nature
27And likewise also the men, leaving the NATURAL use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet

 

[Dave G]

The carnal mind in Roman's leads to death.rom8:6

I agree.

Simply put, Paul is rebuking them for not behaving as those who have been bought with a price.

Amen.

They were in this thing acting as mere men, unsaved natural men, when that is not who a believer is.

Again I agree.

So, there is no such thing as a carnal Christian in the sense of them having a mind that is at enmity with ( opposed to ) God.
As for actions ( fornication, ( 1 Corinthians 5 ) in-fighting, taking their fellow brothers and sisters to law ( 1 Corinthians 6 ), drunkenness, divisions ( 1 Corinthians 11 )sniping at one another, etc ), believers can and do act as other men for a time...

...wouldn't you agree?

 

[Iconoclast]

"Dave Gilbert,

I agree.

Amen.

Again I agree.

Hello DG, sorry for the delay, just finished for the day.
We can agree on most things because you are serious and sincere in your study and posts.

So, there is no such thing as a carnal Christian in the sense of them having a mind that is at enmity with ( opposed to ) God.

There are unsaved religious people who might be described as under the dominion of the flesh, but they are not yet Christians.
Obviously God alone is their judge, but we are our brothers keeper.
Archangel explained it well and I will offer two sermons that give the history of this heresy, as well as exegetical considerations.
https://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/downing/wd_carnal.mp3
https://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/carnal/01am_carnal.mp3

https://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/carnal/02am_carnal.mp3
You will enjoy these three messages

As for actions ( fornication, ( 1 Corinthians 5 ) in-fighting, taking their fellow brothers and sisters to law ( 1 Corinthians 6 ), drunkenness, divisions ( 1 Corinthians 11 )sniping at one another, etc ), believers can and do act as other men for a time...

...wouldn't you agree?

Yes obviously, while we are still in a physical body, the motions of sin can still cause us to sin. That is why we are commanded to mortify these sinful impulses.
These messages lay it out clearly refuting all who have offered error in its place.

 

[Dave G]

That is why we are commanded to mortify these sinful impulses.

" For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." ( Romans 8:13-14 ).

Icon,
Believers have this problem...
It's called the flesh, and its strength is amazing.

So much so, that we as believers cannot defeat it without the Spirit's intervention ( Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:16-17 ).

This is all I will say further.
I wish you well in your daily travels.

 

[Iconoclast]

" For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." ( Romans 8:13-14 ).

Icon,
Believers have this problem...
It's called the flesh, and its strength is amazing.

So much so, that we as believers cannot defeat it without the Spirit's intervention ( Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:16-17 ).

This is all I will say further.
I wish you well in your daily travels.

Yes started in north Augusta, went down to Waycross, then Jacksonville ended up back in SC.

 

[JonC]

" For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." ( Romans 8:13-14 ).

Icon,
Believers have this problem...
It's called the flesh, and its strength is amazing.

So much so, that we as believers cannot defeat it without the Spirit's intervention ( Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:16-17 ).

This is all I will say further.
I wish you well in your daily travels.

A side note Dave,

John Owen wrote in The Mortification of Sin, "Be killing sin or it will be killing you".

I do not believe many churches view sin as dangerous as it is. Sometimes it seems it is expected that Christians turn to the flesh. Scripture presents it as an exception to the normal life of the believer.

We do sin, but we should be crushed by our sin and repent. Repentance is a well worn path for the Christian - not a one time event. And repentance is a change, not just feeling sorry.

In this way we move from glory to glory, becoming more and more conformed into the image of Christ. We repent and God continues forgives and then we find our next struggle.

I believe this is not taught as strongly as it should be.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I agree.

Amen.

Again I agree.

So, there is no such thing as a carnal Christian in the sense of them having a mind that is at enmity with ( opposed to ) God.
As for actions ( fornication, ( 1 Corinthians 5 ) in-fighting, taking their fellow brothers and sisters to law ( 1 Corinthians 6 ), drunkenness, divisions ( 1 Corinthians 11 )sniping at one another, etc ), believers can and do act as other men for a time...

...wouldn't you agree?

Could you help with explaining 1 cor 2
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No there is not.
The carnal mind in Roman's leads to death.rom8:6
Simply put, Paul is rebuking them for not behaving as those who have been bought with a price.
They were in this thing acting as mere men, unsaved natural men, when that is not who a believer is.

Could you help with explaining 1 cor 2
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.?

 

[Barry Johnson]

"Dave Gilbert,


Hello DG, sorry for the delay, just finished for the day.
We can agree on most things because you are serious and sincere in your study and posts.



There are unsaved religious people who might be described as under the dominion of the flesh, but they are not yet Christians.
Obviously God alone is their judge, but we are our brothers keeper.
Archangel explained it well and I will offer two sermons that give the history of this heresy, as well as exegetical considerations.
https://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/downing/wd_carnal.mp3
https://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/carnal/01am_carnal.mp3

https://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/carnal/02am_carnal.mp3
You will enjoy these three messages


Yes obviously, while we are still in a physical body, the motions of sin can still cause us to sin. That is why we are commanded to mortify these sinful impulses.
These messages lay it out clearly refuting all who have offered error in its place.

The above Aduio is making the classic case ( recently Paul washer has also made ) about ' the carnal Christian being a myth . That's not my point . My point is on the ' natural man ' and I'm saying there is only two types Paul has in focus in chapters 2 and 3 . The mature and non mature believer. He's addressing belivers . I'm saying the term natural and Carnal are the same type essentially. I make another point on calvernism where they will use this verse as a proof text to say a lost person cannot understand or believe the Gospel. This is how some use this verse . My point is Paul is simply talking about why they are having

I agree.

Amen.

Again I agree.

So, there is no such thing as a carnal Christian in the sense of them having a mind that is at enmity with ( opposed to ) God.
As for actions ( fornication, ( 1 Corinthians 5 ) in-fighting, taking their fellow brothers and sisters to law ( 1 Corinthians 6 ), drunkenness, divisions ( 1 Corinthians 11 )sniping at one another, etc ), believers can and do act as other men for a time...

...wouldn't you agree?

I can agree that Paul is addressing in response to chloe s letter that the reason they have divisions ' I'm of Apollos ' I'm of Paul ' im of John Calvin, I'm of Augustine was because they had not yet matured . its all about them not growing .

 

[Barry Johnson]

The above Aduio is making the classic case ( recently Paul washer has also made ) about ' the carnal Christian being a myth . That's not my point . My point is on the ' natural man ' and I'm saying there is only two types Paul has in focus in chapters 2 and 3 . The mature and non mature believer. He's addressing belivers . I'm saying the term natural and Carnal are the same type essentially. I make another point on calvernism where they will use this verse as a proof text to say a lost person cannot understand or believe the Gospel. This is how some use this verse . My point is Paul is simply talking about why they are having

I can agree that Paul is addressing in response to chloe s letter that the reason they have divisions ' I'm of Apollos ' I'm of Paul ' im of John Calvin, I'm of Augustine was because they had not yet matured . its all about them not growing .

Calvernists breeze into 1 cor chapters 2and 3 and use one verse out of context to use as a proof text ( 2.15 ) to say that unbelievers cannot believe the Gospel .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Calvernists breeze into 1 cor chapters 2and 3 and use one verse out of context to use as a proof text ( 2.15 ) to say that unbelievers cannot believe the Gospel without being regenerated first .

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree.

Amen.

Again I agree.

So, there is no such thing as a carnal Christian in the sense of them having a mind that is at enmity with ( opposed to ) God.
As for actions ( fornication, ( 1 Corinthians 5 ) in-fighting, taking their fellow brothers and sisters to law ( 1 Corinthians 6 ), drunkenness, divisions ( 1 Corinthians 11 )sniping at one another, etc ), believers can and do act as other men for a time...

...wouldn't you agree?

Carnal though in the sense of submitting to the flesh, and not the Spirit!

 

[37818]

I know it is speaking to professed Christians.
It is a word of rebuke, not a description.
There is no such thing as a carnal Christian.

Explain "brethren" in 1 Corinthians 3:1-2.

 

[Iconoclast]

Explain "brethren" in 1 Corinthians 3:1-2.

Archangel gave a thorough answer to this in post #32.
Do you understand the use of a simile?
Read post 32, listen to the 3 messages and any question will vanish.

 

[Van]

Also the term 'Natural 'is not a negative term .like here in Rom 1.
26¶For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the NATURAL use into that which is against nature
27And likewise also the men, leaving the NATURAL use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet

Unfortunately, the translators chose to translate two different Greek words into the same English word (natural) obliterating the inspired distinction provided in Greek. In your verse above, the idea is to use our reproductive system as designed, i.e. the natural function, as opposed to using our reproductive system in an unnatural way, i.e. not as intended for reproduction.

G5591 - psychikos is found at 1 Corinthians 2:14, but G5446 -physikos is found at Romans 1:26. This is why consistent translation of word meanings using unique English words or phrases is important.

 

[37818]

Now, in chapter 3, Paul does equate the believers with being infants, not unbelievers. Here is the pertinent text:

No.
". . . But we have the mind of Christ. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. . . ."

 

[JonC]

Carnal though in the sense of submitting to the flesh, and not the Spirit!

If you will, please describe what would be a carnal spirit (a spirit "set on the flesh").

 

[Iconoclast]

"Barry Johnson,

The above Aduio is making the classic case ( recently Paul washer has also made ) about ' the carnal Christian being a myth . That's not my point .

You did not listen did you?

 

[The Archangel]

No.
". . . But we have the mind of Christ. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. . . ."

I don't exactly know what point you're trying to make...

The Archangel

 

[37818]

I don't exactly know what point you're trying to make...

The Archangel

No.
". . . But we have the mind of Christ. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. . . ."

The "we" who share in having the mind of Christ, 1 Corinthians 2:16, are the "I," the Aoostle Paul and the "brethren" who Paul calls carnal in 1 Corinthians 3:1-2.