The Natural man

[The Archangel]

I have given explicitly why I think my understanding is right. You fail hear it. And I am evidently not understanding your view as to why you seem to not see my view.

I am having a rough time tracking with what you're saying... To put it another way, I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make.

Do we agree that the "natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is not yet a belever?

Yes. I can agree with that. But, I have to ask: How does the natural man discussion of 1 Cor 2:14 relate to what comes before and after?

In summary, from 1 Corinthians 2:16 - 1 Corinthians 3:1-23, ". . . we have the mind of Christ. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [ I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? . . . ye are Christ's . . ."

Now... you've lost me again. Can you explain what you mean rather than just quoting scripture?

Now that milk are the things of God.

Explain further, please

Reason with me.

I'm working on it.

The Archangel

 

[JonC]

If this would be a Moderator, then up to whoever is over them !

Why keep bringing up moderators? RSR and I am the two active moderators and we are both honest men. Squire and Salty are Administrators and they are honest me.

We are all imperfect people but we do the best we can in staffing the board.

If you have an issue with us please just inform us via PM, not call us into question on the open forum.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why keep bringing up moderators? RSR and I am the two active moderators and we are both honest men. Squire and Salty are Administrators and they are honest me.

We are all imperfect people but we do the best we can in staffing the board.

If you have an issue with us please just inform us via PM, not call us into question on the open forum.

I have no problem with any of you, was just answering your questions!

 

[37818]

I am having a rough time tracking with what you're saying... To put it another way, I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make.



Yes. I can agree with that. But, I have to ask: How does the natural man discussion of 1 Cor 2:14 relate to what comes before and after?



Now... you've lost me again. Can you explain what you mean rather than just quoting scripture?



Explain further, please



I'm working on it.

The Archangel

Paul said to Christians who were not being spiritual as they should be, ". . . I . . . could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: . . ."

 

[JonC]

I have no problem with any of you, was just answering your questions!

I do not know what you are talking about.

I am saying that the natural man is inclined to the flesh. The spiritual is inclined to the Spirit. Christians may stumble but they are not mastered by sin. The mark of the natural man is disobedience (unforgiving, unloving, unkind, haughty, ect.). We judge the fruit of a person.

This can be applied to this board but is not derived from it.

I am not talking about members here. Why are you talking about the Staff?

 

[JonC]

Romans 8:5-8

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. [6] The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. [7] The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. [8] 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

 

[The Archangel]

Paul said to Christians who were not being spiritual as they should be, ". . . I . . . could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: . . ."

Ok... But, there's an assumption, I think, that you're making... When Paul is talking to the church here, he's not saying that the believers simply aren't living as they should be. He's saying, in effect, there's something deficient in their Christianity. They are not what they should be, true, but that's not Ok with Paul. The whole "carnal christian" discussion seems to be based on the idea that claiming to be a believer but living like you're not is no problem. Of course, Paul's discussion does not let that idea rest.

Like a child who does not progress to meet developmental benchmarks, it is not Ok for a Christian to not develop and progress in their faith. So, those who are milk-drinkers ("babes in Christ") are possibly non-believers. But that doesn't relate to what Paul has said in ch. 2. His discussion in v. 14 and v. 15 is stating a general principal about the unsaved. The whole discussion hinges on Paul's argument flow. He isn't equating any particular believer with the "natural" man in v. 14, but the entire thrust of his argument has the weight of "if the shoe fits." Paul would tell his readers in this very same group "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?...(2 Corinthians 13:5 ESV"

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not know what you are talking about.

I am saying that the natural man is inclined to the flesh. The spiritual is inclined to the Spirit. Christians may stumble but they are not mastered by sin. The mark of the natural man is disobedience (unforgiving, unloving, unkind, haughty, ect.). We judge the fruit of a person.

This can be applied to this board but is not derived from it.

I am not talking about members here. Why are you talking about the Staff?

There was a question placed to me about how yo deal with moderators, so just answered it!

 

[JonC]

There was a question placed to me about how yo deal with moderators, so just answered it!

Oh. I didn't see that. Sorry.

 

[37818]

The whole "carnal christian" discussion seems to be based on the idea that claiming to be a believer but living like you're not is no problem.

That is a false narative. Paul was criticizing some of the Corinthian Chrisians for not being as spieitual but as carnal, 1 Corinthians 3:1-2.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is a false narative. Paul was criticizing some of the Corinthian Chrisians for not being as spieitual but as carnal, 1 Corinthians 3:1-2.

Think that its more akin to someone is really saved, but seems to be stuck at babes in Christ status!

 

[The Archangel]

That is a false narative. Paul was criticizing some of the Corinthian Chrisians for not being as spieitual but as carnal, 1 Corinthians 3:1-2.

But the word in 1 Cor 3 isn't "carnal" is it? Paul says he can't address them as spiritual, but as "people of the flesh. Then, he qualifies what he said as "infants in Christ." So he isn't saying the Corinthian church is full of unbelievers, per se, but neither is he saying their state is Ok. What is more the "natural" man of 1 Cor 2:14 is not the same word Paul uses here for "people of the flesh." In either case, Paul's discussion of the "natural" man is discussing unbelievers and--save for the qualifier Paul gives (infants in Christ)--he is coming very close to calling these Corinthians "unbelievers."

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

But the word in 1 Cor 3 isn't "carnal" is it? Paul says he can't address them as spiritual, but as "people of the flesh. Then, he qualifies what he said as "infants in Christ." So he isn't saying the Corinthian church is full of unbelievers, per se, but neither is he saying their state is Ok. What is more the "natural" man of 1 Cor 2:14 is not the same word Paul uses here for "people of the flesh." In either case, Paul's discussion of the "natural" man is discussing unbelievers and--save for the qualifier Paul gives (infants in Christ)--he is coming very close to calling these Corinthians "unbelievers."

The Archangel

he does seem to want to "spank" many of them and tell them to grow up!

 

[Calminian]

Is the ' natural man ' a reference to a lost person or a ' Carnal Christian ' ?
1 cor 2
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Quite obviously, a lost person. One not yet drawn by the supernatural.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Quite obviously, a lost person. One not yet drawn by the supernatural.

Why do you say that ? what in the context leads you to think that ?

 

[Calminian]

Why do you say that ? what in the context leads you to think that ?

The immediate context of the passage itself.

4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.​

Paul is speaking about the saving faith that comes from the Gospel. He's talking about the Spirit who is given to those who believe.

12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.​

The NIV rendering puts it in those terms.

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.​

There is a similar theme in Romans 8.

The translations using the term "natural man" are fine also. The term natural means without God or without the supernatural. It is someone left to themselves. It's the soul man or spiritless man.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The immediate context of the passage itself.

4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.​

Paul is speaking about the saving faith that comes from the Gospel. He's talking about the Spirit who is given to those who believe.

12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.​

The NIV rendering puts it in those terms.

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.​

There is a similar theme in Romans 8.

The translations using the term "natural man" are fine also. The term natural means without God or without the supernatural. It is someone left to themselves. It's the soul man or spiritless man.

Yes I think this is another problem with the NIV . You would be better reading other versions here because that is misleading . Notice that most versions do not translate that way .
Also the context is Paul didnt use clever rethoric , philosophy, the wisdom of this world. These saved believers valued wisdom . Paul is making the point that He preaches plainly . They complained of his bodily presence and speech . He tells them they have the indwelling Spirit to know the things of God . They can understand the wisdom He has for them that he speaks among the mature ( verse 6 ) but there carnal and unable to bear the meat . Carnal and Natural man are the same.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The immediate context of the passage itself.

4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.​

Paul is speaking about the saving faith that comes from the Gospel. He's talking about the Spirit who is given to those who believe.

12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.​

The NIV rendering puts it in those terms.

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.​

There is a similar theme in Romans 8.

The translations using the term "natural man" are fine also. The term natural means without God or without the supernatural. It is someone left to themselves. It's the soul man or spiritless man.

The immediate context of the passage itself.

4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.​

Paul is speaking about the saving faith that comes from the Gospel. He's talking about the Spirit who is given to those who believe.

12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.​

The NIV rendering puts it in those terms.

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.​

There is a similar theme in Romans 8.

The translations using the term "natural man" are fine also. The term natural means without God or without the supernatural. It is someone left to themselves. It's the soul man or spiritless man.

Could you explain this verse in the context you believe about Paul suddenly introduced the thought about lost people not able to understand the wisdom of God ?
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

 

[Calminian]

...Also the context is Paul didnt use clever rethoric , philosophy, the wisdom of this world. ....

Quote the verse you think is saying this. Particularly, the "of the world" part. I believe you added that.

 

[Calminian]

Yes I think this is another problem with the NIV . ....

Let me know which translation you would accept.