The P in T.U.L.I.P

[AustinC]

Again and again Calvinists rewrite the bible to pour bogus doctrine into it. God desires all men to be saved means God desires some men to be saved? Hogwash.

Van, Van, Van, nowhere did Dave or atpollard rewrite the Bible. Stop acting like a victim, put on your big boy pants, and accept that scripture does not support your contention on this matter.

 

[Van]

SNIP

Galatians 3:24 is not about Total Inability at all. You have ignored the context of Galatians 3 which is about contrasting salvation by the Law with salvation by Faith and making the point that Salvation does not come from the Law, Salvation comes by Faith.​

So the critical question for addressing the T in TULIP is what is the source of Faith?

• [Eph 2:8 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;

• [Rom 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
  
• [Jhn 6:44-45 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
  
• [Jhn 15:16 NASB] 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Here on display is yet another of the tools of the nullifiers, since the main point is "A" we can claim the minor points "B" "C" and "D", can be ignored. Twaddle Galatians 3:24 says the OT can lead those under sin to Christ. None of the above listed verses conflicts with that truth, they support it!

And I have pointed out a gazillion times, the faith we place in Christ, based on the gospel, is our faith, and only if God then credits our faith as righteousness, does it become "saving faith." None of the above verses conflicts with this rather basis truth.

 

[Van]

Van, Van, Van, nowhere did Dave or atpollard rewrite the Bible. Stop acting like a victim, put on your big boy pants, and accept that scripture does not support your contention on this matter.

Stop you disparagement and deflection posts.

 

[Dave G]

Galatians 3:24 indicates the "us" refers to everyone under sin who believes.

Amen, Van.

Thus the actual meaning is that the LAW leads those under sin to Christ, and is not limited to the elect.

Again, Van...
God's elect are the "whosoever believeth".

Their faith is known as the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ).
They are elect according to the foreknowledge of God ( 1 Peter 1:2 ).
They are His workmanship, created "in Christ Jesus" unto good works ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

There is no such thing as a true believer in Jesus Christ, born again of the Spirit of God ( James 1:18 ), brought to repentance by the power of God and sees their sin as a grievous thing in the sight of a holy God, who is not elect.
The context of Romans 8 tells is in verse 33:

" What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." ( Romans 8:31-34 ).

The subject of "us" in the above is the believer...those who are in Christ Jesus and who walk after the Spirit in verse 1 of this same passage.

 

[Van]

Amen, Van.

Again, Van...
God's elect are the "whosoever believeth".

Their faith is known as the faith of God's elect ( Titus 1:1 ). SNIP

.

I have addressed all this, including Titus 1:1.

And I have pointed out a gazillion times, the faith we place in Christ, based on the gospel, is our faith, and only if God then credits our faith as righteousness, does it become "saving faith." None of the above verses conflicts with this rather basis truth.

 

[Dave G]

John 3:19-21 does not say "all men."

Here's what it says:

" For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." ( John 3:17-21 ).

Here's what I see in this passage:

17) God did not send His Son into the world to condemn it, but that the world through Him might be saved.
"Might" here is defined thusly:

• expressing purpose.
  "he avoided social engagements so that he might work"

18) He that believes on Christ is not condemned.
He that does not believe is condemned already.
Why?
By cause ( since ) he has not believed on the name of Christ.

19) This is that condemnation spoken of in the prior verse...
Light is come into the world ( Jesus Christ from verse 17, also see John 8:12 for the identity of "Light" ) and men...that's all men...loved darkness rather than light.
Why?
Because their deeds were evil.
Christ, however, shines that light upon every man who comes into the world ( John 1:9 ).

20) Everyone that does evil hates the Light ( Jesus Christ ), neither comes to the Light lest ( with the intention of preventing ) his deeds should be reproved, or corrected / reprimanded.
All men do evil, Van.
There is not a just man upon the earth who does good and sins not.

In addition, for more Scriptural proof that all people outside Christ hate Him, please see 1 John 3:13, John 15:18.
How you make the statement that the world of men does not hate Jesus christ, I do not know...
Since Jesus Himself very clearly states that the world hates Him.

21) He that does truth comes to the light.
Who comes to the Light?
Those to whom it was given of the Father to do so ( John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:1-3 ).
They do so, so that their deeds may be shown that they are wrought ( worked ) in God.



Given the above, what do you see here in these passages, line by line?
Please list it out so that we can compare it together, and so that the readers of this thread can see how you understand it.

Obviously we do not agree in our understanding of it, so why not do as I did above, in an effort to help clear up our disagreement or at least shed some light on the points we do disagree on and why?

 

[Dave G]

This pattern of reading into the text to support bogus doctrine is twaddle.

This pattern of reading the meaning out of the text is called "understanding" Van.
It's a straightforward method of believing the words on the page at face value, and then understanding the words in their natural contexts.

And the claim the OT passages describe hate for Jesus is ludicrous.

Jesus Christ is God.

Any passage in the Bible that calls men "haters of God", is directed not only towards the Father, but towards His Son.
To know God the Son is to know God the Father.

Please see the Psalms for statements about men hating God.

Next we get the denial that "through" does not mean on the basis of. Taint so claims make scripture to no effect.

"Through" means "through".
"By" means "by".
There is no passage in all of God's word that states that men are saved "by" faith...

Rather, we are saved "through" it, and that tells us what the Lord has given us as believers those things by His grace as part of His gift of eternal life.

There is no issue of where the faith comes from, it is our faith which God credits as righteousness.

True faith comes from God ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
He then credits our faith in His Son's work on the cross as righteousness.

It's all of God Van, or it becomes works in His sight.

The gift of faith is not the means whereby a person is saved.
Again, with emphasis, it is the evidence of that work, just as Hebrews 11:1 states.

Here we have your denial of Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24

Not at all, Van.
I affirm them.

What I do not do, is take them out of context and make them the sole determiner of why a person is saved.
But it seems to me as if you are doing that very thing.

 

[Dave G]

Did I say all men have faith? Nope so more deflection.

I have made no accusation against you regarding this.
I simply emphasized that all men do not have faith, which only reinforces where faith comes from.

I think it should be obvious that since all men do not have faith, then faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
However, you did state this:

" And I have pointed out a gazillion times, the faith we place in Christ, based on the gospel, is our faith, and only if God then credits our faith as righteousness, does it become "saving faith." None of the above verses conflicts with this rather basis truth."

But, since all men do not have faith as 1 Thessalonians 3:2 clearly states, then how is it that all men can potentially place their faith in Christ and have that faith credited as righteousness...since all men do not have it?


My question is, how does one who does not possess faith, place that non-existent faith in Christ and God credit that non-existent faith as righteousness?
In order for one to have faith, one must first possess it.

Finally, the "faith of God's elect" refers to the faith of those whose faith God credits as righteousness.

Amen.

Calvinism cannot be defended, only asserted by false claims.

We're talking about Scripture here, Van...
Not John Calvin.

Let's drop the terms "Arminian" and "Calvinist", and simply look carefully at what God's word actually states, shall we?

 

[Dave G]

@Van:
Please see post # 66 and my request at the end of it.

I think it prudent to show the reader how we both understand John 3:17-21, so that they can clearly see how you arrive at your conclusion that all men do not hate Jesus Christ but for a work of God's grace.

 

[Van]

Here's what it says:
SNIP
Obviously we do not agree in our understanding of it, so why not do as I did above, in an effort to help clear up our disagreement or at least shed some light on the points we do disagree on and why?

Please stop copy and pasting great swathes of off the shelf arguments which never address the issue. All men are under sin, but that does not mean we never seek God or trust in Christ. Calvinist take "all men" and claim "all men all of the time." It is an obvious overreach.

 

[Van]

This pattern of reading the meaning out of the text is called "understanding" Van.

Taint so post.

 

[Van]

@Van:
Please see post # 66 and my request at the end of it.

I think it prudent to show the reader how we both understand John 3:17-21, so that they can clearly see how you arrive at your conclusion that all men do not hate Jesus Christ but for a work of God's grace.

All men do not hate Christ all the time, and therefore some can be led to Christ on the basis of their understanding of scripture.
Matthew 23:13 demonstrates the fiction of total spiritual ability.

 

[Dave G]

All men do not hate Christ all the time, and therefore some can be led to Christ on the basis of their understanding of scripture.

I think that Matthew 11:27, Luke 24:45, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 tells us differently, as do many other Scriptures.

Matthew 23:13 demonstrates the fiction of total spiritual ability.

All men are under sin, but that does not mean we never seek God or trust in Christ.

Respectfully, Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:17-21 and the Psalms demonstrate the truth that, apart form God's intervention, no man seeks Him in and of ourselves.

 

[Dave G]

Please stop copy and pasting great swathes of off the shelf arguments which never address the issue.

Please stop avoiding my questions, Van.

In addition, people you are likely to meet besides myself are going to ask you in-depth questions as well.
How are you going to answer them transparently and patiently, if you are not willing to address their each and every concern?

 

[Dave G]

@Van:
Please see post # 66 and my request at the end of it.

I think it prudent to show the reader how we both understand John 3:17-21, so that they can clearly see how you arrive at your conclusion that all men do not hate Jesus Christ but for a work of God's grace.

Simply quote the passage and list your understanding of it line by line, and I believe that should answer any questions the reader may have on why you see what you see.

 

[Van]

Matthew 11:27, Luke 24:45, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 tells us differently.

Respectfully, Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:17-21 and the Psalms demonstrate its truth.

No verse tells differently. No one. Nowhere in scripture is there any support. That is why to copy verse after non germane verse.

Lets look at the first one:
Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

No mention of total spiritual inability. Just a totally bogus reference to claim support where none exists.

 

[Van]

Please stop avoiding my questions, Van.

In addition, people you are likely to meet besides myself are going to ask you in-depth questions as well.
How are you going to answer them transparently and patiently, if you are not willing to address their each and every concern?

The claim I have avoided his questions may be valid, since he asked subject change question.
I have answered each and every bogus argument provided to support bogus doctrine. I supported each point from scripture.

 

[Dave G]

That is why to copy verse after non germane verse.

They are quite germaine Van.

Shall we go through them one at a time?

Lets look at the first one:
Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

No mention of total spiritual inability. Just a totally bogus reference to claim support where none exists.

Lets see what it says, Van:

" All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]."

All things are delivered to Christ "of" ( by or from ) the Father .
No man knows the Son, but the Father.
Neither does any man know the Father except the Son.
No man knows the Father except those to whom the Son will reveal Him to.

I clearly see that no one knows Christ except the person to which it is revealed to...not all men.
Do you see this when you read it, Van, or do you see something else?

 

[Van]

The TULI of the TULIP are bogus doctrines hindering our understanding of the gospel.

Total Spiritual Inability declares we cannot to led to Christ with our ability to understand scripture. However scripture says the LAW leads us to Christ. Therefore the T is obviously unbiblical.

Unconditional Election declares salvation is not accessible through faith in Jesus Christ, because only those individually chosen before creation unconditionally will be altered so they can put their faith and devotion in Jesus Christ. However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 plainly teaches we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

Limited Atonement declares Christ did not die for all mankind, but only for the supposedly previously chosen elect. However God desires "all men" to be saved and therefore Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:5

Irresistible Grace declares God first enables a lost person to trust in Christ, then irresistibly causes the person to "willingly" trust fully in Christ. However, Matthew 23:13 tells of men who were entering the kingdom, thus somehow enabled to seek God, yet were prevented from entering by false teachers, and therefore not being compelled by irresistible grace.

 

[Dave G]

The claim I have avoided his questions may be valid, since he asked subject change question.
I have answered each and every bogus argument provided to support bogus doctrine. I supported each point from scripture.

In my estimation, you have not supported them thoroughly Van, as Scripture doesn't simply stop answering the questions where you have ended them.