The P in T.U.L.I.P

[atpollard]

my point is that this is not ' eternal security ' I believe that the person who has to endure to the end is not applicable outside of the tribulation ( after the rapture ) The Gospel is not " enduring to the end to be saved ' ( works salvation )

Not "MUST" but "WILL" ...

• [Philippians 1:6 NASB] 6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
• [Ephesians 2:10 NASB] 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
• [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• [John 10:26-29 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

 

[37818]

The teaching goes something like this . If a person is saved ( in Calvernism this means ' an elect person ) he will ! persevere in good works and holiness . If he does not persevere in holiness and good works then he shows he is not one of the elect . This is compounded by mis applying verses such as "
he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13)
this is applied to mean that a true elect person from his first day of salvation ( awakening) till his death will persevere till his death . This is often explained with a mis application of so called ' warning passages that these serve as a method to keep an elect person to persevere .
of course if a calvernist is not persevering in holiness and good works then its doubtful he is a chosen one . " they went out from us ect " This is what I mean by subtle works salvation .

That is how you understand it. In any case good works are the purpose and a result of being saved, Ephesians 2:10, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Did Solomon 'persevere'? Or was Solomon 'preserved'?

Soloman was not sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. This only happens in the church age .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Not "MUST" but "WILL" ...

• [Philippians 1:6 NASB] 6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
• [Ephesians 2:10 NASB] 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
• [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• [John 10:26-29 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

John 6.44 simply says ( to those before the cross and the giving of the Holy Spirit) that they can come . notice the ' can come ' . it says nothing about there choice to come or not .

 

[Barry Johnson]

John 6.44 simply says ( to those before the cross and the giving of the Holy Spirit) that they can come . notice the ' can come ' . it says nothing about there choice to come or not .

The sheep are simply the ones hearing from the Father before the arrival of Jesus . Actually after the cross believers are more than just ' in ' Gods hand ( of course those that believe you can lose salvation will say the verse says nothing about about a person ' jumping out of his hand ) After the cross , believers are his hand ( being in His body ..being in Him .

 

[Barry Johnson]

John 6.44 simply says ( to those before the cross and the giving of the Holy Spirit) that they can come . notice the ' can come ' . it says nothing about there choice to come or not .

Do you have any verses after the cross on eternal security. ( I do believe in Eternal security, but not based on ' election ' ).

 

[kyredneck]

Soloman was not sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption.

What does that mean to you? "Sealed by the Holy Spirit". What all do you read into 'sealed by the Holy Spirit'?

Does it somehow excuse Solomon's idolatry in his old age?

 

[Barry Johnson]

There are different doctrines that are called "Lordship Salvation." In order to answer the question whether or not the Perseverance of the Saints teaches a form of Lordship Salvation I need to know what you mean by Lordship Salvation. The Perseverance of the Saints certainly does not teach any certain of justification by works or man's own duties. We understand that we are not our own saviors, and do not save ourselves by our own works or efforts.

But in order to understand the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints consider the explanation of it given in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

Chapter XVII
Of Perseverance of the Saints​

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the degree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

Consider also what it says on the doctrine of the Assurance of Salvation:

Chapter XVIII
Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation
​

I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of god, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

But I will need to know what doctrine it is you oppose under the name "Lordship Salvation" in order to say whether or not the Perseverance of the Saints teaches a form of Lordship Salvation.

Well John

What does that mean to you? "Sealed by the Holy Spirit". What all do you read into 'sealed by the Holy Spirit'?

Does it somehow excuse Solomon's idolatry in his old age?

Ephesians 1
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Barry Johnson]

What does that mean to you? "Sealed by the Holy Spirit". What all do you read into 'sealed by the Holy Spirit'?

Does it somehow excuse Solomon's idolatry in his old age?

Being sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption means just that . After you believe the Gospel we are sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. This means that we cannot be lost .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Being sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption means just that . After you believe the Gospel we are sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. This means that we cannot be lost .

But in the OT they could have the Holy Spirit depart as it did with Saul . And it's why David prayed not to have the Holy Spirit taken from him . The Holy spirit did not ' indwell ' believers in the OT . This only happens in the NT

 

[kyredneck]

Being sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption means just that . After you believe the Gospel we are sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. This means that we cannot be lost .

But in the OT they could have the Holy Spirit depart as it did with Saul . And it's why David prayed not to have the Holy Spirit taken from him . The Holy spirit did not ' indwell ' believers in the OT . This only happens in the NT

So in Barry Johnson's theology there was no eternal security for the OT believer.

 

[Van]

If God really wanted all men to be redeemed, they would be.
SNIP
God chooses.
SNIP

The Calvinist claim God desires to save some people by compulsion is pure fiction with no support anywhere in scripture.
The fact God chooses for salvation through faith in the truth is obvious from 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Calvinism's TULI are bogus and destructive.

 

[Van]

The P is critical to the scheme because you cant have elect people failing to be Holy and have works to bear . They have to make Jesus Lord of everything and endure to the end in works other wise they must doubt there Election . This is the trap .

This may be why that did not just stick with once saved, always saved, but instead, they muddy the water.

 

[37818]

Do you believe that you have to endure to the end to be saved ?

First, God cannot lie, Titus 1:2. And most importantly it is God who keeps those whom He saves, John 10:28. And God impowers those whom He saves to actually have His love which endures, 1 John 4:7; 1 Corinthians 13:7. 1 Corinthians 13:7 >> therefore Matthew 10:22 is a sure thing.

 

[Barry Johnson]

So in Barry Johnson's theology there was no eternal security for the OT believer.

Do you have some verses to show that an old testament saint had eternal security?

 

[37818]

The subtle 'works salvation ' / Lordship salvation goes like this . If I'm elect I will persevere in good works . if I'm not persevering then I must not be one of the elect .

Lordship salvation is false, Matthew 7:21-23. It is our Lord Jesus being our Christ, 1 John 5:1, so we are born of God.

Now Jesus is Lord of both the saved and the perishing, Romans 14:11. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11. Romans 8:34.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The Calvinist claim God desires to save some people by compulsion is pure fiction with no support anywhere in scripture.
The fact God chooses for salvation through faith in the truth is obvious from 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Calvinism's TULI are bogus and destructive.

All the 5 points are destructive. the P is not eternal security..

 

[Barry Johnson]

First, God cannot lie, Titus 1:2. And most importantly it is God who keeps those whom He saves, John 10:28. And God impowers those whom He saves to actually have His love which endures, 1 John 4:7; 1 Corinthians 13:7. 1 Corinthians 13:7 >> therefore Matthew 10:22 is a sure thing.

Why cant you just trust that because you trusted and believed the Gospel now you are sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. Meaning you don't have to endure to the end to be saved . Especially as enduring to the end is a works gospel . When Jesus says " endure to the end " it's not talking about from when we get saved till we die . It's about those during the tribulation and its about physical death most likely. Either way it's for those ( future) during the trib .

 

[Barry Johnson]

What do you believe that “Perseverance of the Saints” means?



What, in your opinion, is “Eternal Security” and what is “OSAS”? How are they different?

It is difficult to really discuss “emotionally loaded” terms without first establishing what one means by those terms.



I am not sure what “Lorship / subtle works salvation” is, so I cannot answer directly. If you could define what you mean by the term, then I could respond with a simple “yes” or “no”.

However, the P in TULIP stand for “Perseverance of the Saints”, which means, in the simplest terms, that the SAINTS will PERSEVERE. To expand upon that, one can define the three critical words:

• Saints = those who have been saved, whose sins have been forgiven and for whom Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.
• Will = something that is going to happen, not a mere possibility, but an absolute certainty.
• Persevere = to continue to the end and finish what was started.

In it’s purest form, Perseverance of the Saints teaches that no person that God starts on the long journey down the narrow path, will fail to reach the end of that path.

Essentially it means God will make sure the ' elect ' ( calvernist version of the frozen chosen) will endure till the end to final salvation. The only way to know ( guess ) that your one of the awakened frozen chosen is through your perseverance till the end . If your not persevering or have persevered till the end you must have been a non elect all a long .
This is bondage and it's no better than ' works for salvation.

 

[atpollard]

John 6.44 simply says ( to those before the cross and the giving of the Holy Spirit) that they can come . notice the ' can come ' . it says nothing about there choice to come or not .

To place a caveat of “before the cross and the giving of the Holy Spirit” as nullifying scripture, requires us to discard everything in the OT and Gospels and as not being applicable to the Church and Christians. I cannot accept that premise.

You also missed the point of John 6:44 as it related to your question.

[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

When Jesus said “and I will raise him up”, who is the HE that Jesus was speaking of?
When Jesus said “and I will raise him up”, did the word WILL mean WILL or MIGHT?
Where in that promise from the lips of God Incarnate is the word IF or WORK?