The P in T.U.L.I.P

[Dave G]

The TULI of the TULIP are bogus doctrines hindering our understanding of the gospel.

Total Spiritual Inability declares we cannot to led to Christ with our ability to understand scripture. However scripture says the LAW leads us to Christ. Therefore the T is obviously unbiblical.

Unconditional Election declares salvation is not accessible through faith in Jesus Christ, because only those individually chosen before creation unconditionally will be altered so they can put their faith and devotion in Jesus Christ. However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 plainly teaches we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

Limited Atonement declares Christ did not die for all mankind, but only for the supposedly previously chosen elect. However God desires "all men" to be saved and therefore Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:5

Irresistible Grace declares God first enables a lost person to trust in Christ, then irresistibly causes the person to "willingly" trust fully in Christ. However, Matthew 23:13 tells of men who were entering the kingdom, thus somehow enabled to seek God, yet were prevented from entering by false teachers, and therefore not being compelled by irresistible grace.

From my perspective, you're going round and round Van.
It seems that you are cutting and pasting as you have accused others of doing, but I can't be sure as I am not privy to your thoughts.

Please stop copy and pasting great swathes of off the shelf arguments which never address the issue.

Please see your statement above.

As I see it, you're not answering the questions posed to you by someone who has them.
You're simply making "canned" statements and asking the reader to trust your declarations, even if they bring up objections.
Instead of answering those objections from Scripture, you simply revert to the original statement.

In the best interests of being as thorough as possible, I urge you to go beyond your short statements and address the Scriptures that have been posed to you.

 

[Van]

They are quite germaine Van.

Shall we go through them one at a time?

Lets see what it says, Van:

" All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]."

All things are delivered to Christ "of" ( by or from ) my Father .
No man knows the Son, but the Father.
Neither does any man know the Father except the Son.
No man knows the Father except those to whom the Son will reveal Him to.

I asked you to stop copy and pasting non-germane arguments. Are you unaware that when we are placed and sealed in Christ, they we know both the Son and the Father.

This is all they have, misrepresenting one verse while ignoring another.

 

[Van]

From my perspective, you're going round and round Van.
Cutting and pasting.

Please see your statement above.

Disparagement and deflection, non-germane references, and reading into scripture what is no where to be found. Calvinism on display. The Law leads some to Christ, thus those under sin have some capacity to seek God and trust Christ. Total Spiritual Inability is a bogus and unbiblical doctrine. Full Stop

 

[Dave G]

Are you unaware that when we are placed and sealed in Christ, they we know both the Son and the Father.

Yes I am, and I praise God for it.
I also praise Him that I was chosen to be placed in Him from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

Truly, salvation is all of grace and none of works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

I asked you to stop copy and pasting non-germane arguments

That was in answer to your statement regarding John 3:19-20, Van.
I gave you another Scripture that disagrees with your statement.

Quite germaine, sir, and no disparagement intended nor do I see anything on the page where I am attacking you personally nor am I ridiculing you.
I am simply asking you for clarification and to address my points.

But, it seems that you are unwilling to do this.

Disparagement and deflection, non-germane references, and reading into scripture what is no where to be found. Calvinism on display. The Law leads some to Christ, thus those under sin have some capacity to seek God and trust Christ. Total Spiritual Inability is a bogus and unbiblical doctrine. Full Stop

To me, you're avoiding questions again, Van, and simply returning to your original statements rather than to expand upon your assertions when they are questioned.

If you've no wish to engage the Scriptures I have provided, I bid you a good day, sir.

 

[Van]

That was in answer to your statement, Van.
Quite germaine, sir.

Please address the position and not the poster. I demonstrated Matthew 11:27 was non-germane to your bogus assertion.
The TULI of the TULIP have been shown from scripture to be unbiblical and bogus.
The Law could not lead those under sin to Christ if the "T" were true.
People would not be chosen for salvation through faith if the "U" were true.
Christ would not be the ransom for all if the "L" were true.
Men entering the kingdom could not be prevented if the "I" were true.

 

[Dave G]

To the OP ( @Barry Johnson ):

Apologies for wandering off-topic.
I believe that this subject has been answered from the side of those who believe in the "P" as asked, and the ones labeled as "Calvinists" have been the most thorough in that answer.
I thank you for the opportunity, despite the rabbit-trail, to respond from my convictions and from what I see and understand of the Scriptures.



May God bless you in your studies and may He always remind you of His goodness and His grace to you through the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.

 

[atpollard]

The TULI of the TULIP are bogus doctrines hindering our understanding of the gospel.

Total Spiritual Inability declares we cannot to led to Christ with our ability to understand scripture. However scripture says the LAW leads us to Christ. Therefore the T is obviously unbiblical.

Unconditional Election declares salvation is not accessible through faith in Jesus Christ, because only those individually chosen before creation unconditionally will be altered so they can put their faith and devotion in Jesus Christ. However, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 plainly teaches we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith in the truth.

Limited Atonement declares Christ did not die for all mankind, but only for the supposedly previously chosen elect. However God desires "all men" to be saved and therefore Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:5

Irresistible Grace declares God first enables a lost person to trust in Christ, then irresistibly causes the person to "willingly" trust fully in Christ. However, Matthew 23:13 tells of men who were entering the kingdom, thus somehow enabled to seek God, yet were prevented from entering by false teachers, and therefore not being compelled by irresistible grace.

Another post seeking to discuss T and U and L and I in a topic dedicated to P. Why not actually discuss the P in TULIP like the Title of the thread and the OP do? Why hijack the topic to spew off-topic hate about anything and everything else?

Are there no other Topics available on:

• Total Inability
• Unconditional Election
  
• Limited Atonement
• Irresistible Grace

that you could have posted on without threadcrapping all over Perseverance of the Saints?

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Again and again Calvinists rewrite the bible to pour bogus doctrine into it. God desires all men to be saved means God desires some men to be saved? Hogwash.

Enjoy

 

[37818]

One of the reasons I started to look into Calvernism properly ( as I started to lean in the direction ) Was the P in T.U.L.I.P.

This is a multi topic thread. I am not a Calvinist, and I believe in P in the TULIP. in short, God keeps saved all whom He saves.

My question is : Isnt the P in T.U.L.I.P essentially of Lorship / subtle works salvation?

5 point Calvinism as I understand it, does not teach any kind Lorship / subtle works salvation. So what do you mean by Lorship / subtle works salvation? Fphesians 2:8-9.

 

[Van]

Another post seeking to discuss T and U and L and I in a topic dedicated to P. Why not actually discuss the P in TULIP like the Title of the thread and the OP do? Why hijack the topic to spew off-topic hate about anything and everything else?

Are there no other Topics available on:

• Total Inability
• Unconditional Election
  
• Limited Atonement
• Irresistible Grace

that you could have posted on without threadcrapping all over Perseverance of the Saints?

If you take the valid "P" out of the TULIP, you are left with the bogus TULI. So the charge of "hijack" is false, thus disparagement on display. I did present discussion of the P, so again your claim I did not "actually" discuss it is yet another false charge, more disparagement, rather than a discussion on your part of the P. Folks, see Posts #24, 27, 29, etc.

Then you sink to vulgarity, which says more about you than about the P.

 

[Van]

Enjoy

Once again we get the usual, off the shelf Calvinist absurdity, which no one should enjoy. Adoption does not refer to being saved, but rather to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. 1 Timothy 2:4 means what it says. It does not say God desires all men to be saved by compulsion, again the Calvinist absurdity. Rather we are to be saved according to God's redemption plan, such that everyone believing into Christ shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Once again we get the usual, off the shelf Calvinist absurdity, which no one should enjoy. Adoption does not refer to being saved, but rather to our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. 1 Timothy 2:4 means what it says. It does not say God desires all men to be saved by compulsion, again the Calvinist absurdity. Rather we are to be saved according to God's redemption plan, such that everyone believing into Christ shall not perish but have eternal life.

If God really wanted all men to be redeemed, they would be.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

God chooses.

Romans 8:26-30

The golden chain of redemption


28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Barry Johnson]

This is a multi topic thread. I am not a Calvinist, and I believe in P in the TULIP. in short, God keeps saved all whom He saves.

5 point Calvinism as I understand it, does not teach any kind Lorship / subtle works salvation. So what do you mean by Lorship / subtle works salvation? Fphesians 2:8-9.

The teaching goes something like this . If a person is saved ( in Calvernism this means ' an elect person ) he will ! persevere in good works and holiness . If he does not persevere in holiness and good works then he shows he is not one of the elect . This is compounded by mis applying verses such as "
he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13)
this is applied to mean that a true elect person from his first day of salvation ( awakening) till his death will persevere till his death . This is often explained with a mis application of so called ' warning passages that these serve as a method to keep an elect person to persevere .
of course if a calvernist is not persevering in holiness and good works then its doubtful he is a chosen one . " they went out from us ect " This is what I mean by subtle works salvation .

 

[Barry Johnson]

The teaching goes something like this . If a person is saved ( in Calvernism this means ' an elect person ) he will ! persevere in good works and holiness . If he does not persevere in holiness and good works then he shows he is not one of the elect . This is compounded by mis applying verses such as "
he who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13)
this is applied to mean that a true elect person from his first day of salvation ( awakening) till his death will persevere till his death . This is often explained with a mis application of so called ' warning passages that these serve as a method to keep an elect person to persevere .
of course if a calvernist is not persevering in holiness and good works then its doubtful he is a chosen one . " they went out from us ect " This is what I mean by subtle works salvation .

my point is that this is not ' eternal security ' I believe that the person who has to endure to the end is not applicable outside of the tribulation ( after the rapture ) The Gospel is not " enduring to the end to be saved ' ( works salvation )

 

[Barry Johnson]

If God really wanted all men to be redeemed, they would be.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

God chooses.

Romans 8:26-30

The golden chain of redemption


28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

There is no such thing as ' the golden chain of redemption ' God knows ( intimately) those that are believers. Those that are Believers are then ( not before they are believers ) are then predestined to future glorification .

 

[Barry Johnson]

This is a multi topic thread. I am not a Calvinist, and I believe in P in the TULIP. in short, God keeps saved all whom He saves.

5 point Calvinism as I understand it, does not teach any kind Lorship / subtle works salvation. So what do you mean by Lorship / subtle works salvation? Fphesians 2:8-9.

Do you believe that you have to endure to the end to be saved ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

This is a multi topic thread. I am not a Calvinist, and I believe in P in the TULIP. in short, God keeps saved all whom He saves.

5 point Calvinism as I understand it, does not teach any kind Lorship / subtle works salvation. So what do you mean by Lorship / subtle works salvation? Fphesians 2:8-9.

The subtle 'works salvation ' / Lordship salvation goes like this . If I'm elect I will persevere in good works . if I'm not persevering then I must not be one of the elect .

 

[Barry Johnson]

If God really wanted all men to be redeemed, they would be.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

God chooses.

Romans 8:26-30

The golden chain of redemption


28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

When it says ' beginning ' why on earth do you change that to mean the beginning of time or creation ect . ? it says beginning and the context is when Paul first met these people .

 

[Barry Johnson]

If you take the valid "P" out of the TULIP, you are left with the bogus TULI. So the charge of "hijack" is false, thus disparagement on display. I did present discussion of the P, so again your claim I did not "actually" discuss it is yet another false charge, more disparagement, rather than a discussion on your part of the P. Folks, see Posts #24, 27, 29, etc.

Then you sink to vulgarity, which says more about you than about the P.

The P is critical to the scheme because you cant have elect people failing to be Holy and have works to bear . They have to make Jesus Lord of everything and endure to the end in works other wise they must doubt there Election . This is the trap .

 

[Barry Johnson]

This is a multi topic thread. I am not a Calvinist, and I believe in P in the TULIP. in short, God keeps saved all whom He saves.

5 point Calvinism as I understand it, does not teach any kind Lorship / subtle works salvation. So what do you mean by Lorship / subtle works salvation? Fphesians 2:8-9.

If you had quoted a verse such as being ' sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption then you would be better to have explained Eternal security rather than the Calvernist version of Perseverance. . Enduring to the end . which is similar to Arminism.