The P in T.U.L.I.P

[AustinC]

Essentially it means God will make sure the ' elect ' ( calvernist version of the frozen chosen) will endure till the end to final salvation. The only way to know ( guess ) that your one of the awakened frozen chosen is through your perseverance till the end . If your not persevering or have persevered till the end you must have been a non elect all a long .
This is bondage and it's no better than ' works for salvation.

What a twisted grasp of perseverance.
What do you fail to understand when God determines your position in Christ, gives you faith to believe and ensures your faith will persevere through the storms of life? How do you end up calling such a view "no better than works salvation?"
It's clear you have adopted an extreme prejudice against anyone who believes in God's Sovereignty over all things. You now apply your bitterness to the fact that God, himself, enables you to persevere. I can only conclude that you don't want or need God and thus desire to save yourself by your own willpower. Otherwise you would fully embrace the perseverance of the saints.

 

[Barry Johnson]

There are different doctrines that are called "Lordship Salvation." In order to answer the question whether or not the Perseverance of the Saints teaches a form of Lordship Salvation I need to know what you mean by Lordship Salvation. The Perseverance of the Saints certainly does not teach any certain of justification by works or man's own duties. We understand that we are not our own saviors, and do not save ourselves by our own works or efforts.

But in order to understand the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints consider the explanation of it given in the Westminster Confession of Faith:
So they c

Chapter XVII
Of Perseverance of the Saints​

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the degree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

Consider also what it says on the doctrine of the Assurance of Salvation:

Chapter XVIII
Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation
​

I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation (which hope of theirs shall perish): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of god, which hope shall never make them ashamed.

But I will need to know what doctrine it is you oppose under the name "Lordship Salvation" in order to say whether or not the Perseverance of the Saints teaches a form of Lordship Salvation.

Lordship salvation is the idea that all those that are saved must endure till the end to be

To place a caveat of “before the cross and the giving of the Holy Spirit” as nullifying scripture, requires us to discard everything in the OT and Gospels and as not being applicable to the Church and Christians. I cannot accept that premise.

You also missed the point of John 6:44 as it related to your question.

[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

When Jesus said “and I will raise him up”, who is the HE that Jesus was speaking of?
When Jesus said “and I will raise him up”, did the word WILL mean WILL or MIGHT?
Where in that promise from the lips of God Incarnate is the word IF or WORK?

What a twisted grasp of perseverance.
What do you fail to understand when God determines your position in Christ, gives you faith to believe and ensures your faith will persevere through the storms of life? How do you end up calling such a view "no better than works salvation?"
It's clear you have adopted an extreme prejudice against anyone who believes in God's Sovereignty over all things. You now apply your bitterness to the fact that God, himself, enables you to persevere. I can only conclude that you don't want or need God and thus desire to save yourself by your own willpower. Otherwise you would fully embrace the perseverance of the saints.

ok let's see this played out . hopefully I can explain by example. Jesus said only to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel . ok please answer why you dont preach this today ?
question 2 before the cross the diciples were preaching the Gospel of the kingdom
. Are you preaching this today ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Lordship salvation is the idea that all those that are saved must endure till the end to be


ok let's see this played out . hopefully I can explain by example. Jesus said only to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel . ok please answer why you dont preach this today ?
question 2 before the cross the diciples were preaching the Gospel of the kingdom
. Are you preaching this today ?

I dont care about free will .Nor do I have a system I have to adhere to like calvernism..so I'm free just to believe what the bible actually says . I believe it pleases God in his sovereignty by the preaching of the Gospel to freely and kingly save those that believe . I believe God is free to do this . I do not tell God what he can and cannot do .

 

[Barry Johnson]

What a twisted grasp of perseverance.
What do you fail to understand when God determines your position in Christ, gives you faith to believe and ensures your faith will persevere through the storms of life? How do you end up calling such a view "no better than works salvation?"
It's clear you have adopted an extreme prejudice against anyone who believes in God's Sovereignty over all things. You now apply your bitterness to the fact that God, himself, enables you to persevere. I can only conclude that you don't want or need God and thus desire to save yourself by your own willpower. Otherwise you would fully embrace the perseverance of the saints.

Your missing the point . Many a ' former calvernist has concluded that he must not be elect because of a failure and not persevering in good works and holiness ( after all how many good works and how holy ? right ? so what is his problem ? he has believed the idea calvernism teaches that an elect person will endure in good works ect . what is he looking to and trusting in ? his works . And how to distinguish between what works are self generated and those that God Is working in you can be subjective . But my point is that Calvernism is a system that leads to a self focused mentality . Many a Famous Calvernist has doubted there salvation even towards the very end because of the P in TULIP. Because your works are the supposed evidence . But what if your one of those that God has determined to fall away ( they went from us ... ect ) This is the issue of this unbiblical idea of the calvernist 'election 'to salvation.

 

[Van]

All the 5 points are destructive. the P is not eternal security..

Please state your case, why do you claim the P does not provide eternal security?

 

[Barry Johnson]

What a twisted grasp of perseverance.
What do you fail to understand when God determines your position in Christ, gives you faith to believe and ensures your faith will persevere through the storms of life? How do you end up calling such a view "no better than works salvation?"
It's clear you have adopted an extreme prejudice against anyone who believes in God's Sovereignty over all things. You now apply your bitterness to the fact that God, himself, enables you to persevere. I can only conclude that you don't want or need God and thus desire to save yourself by your own willpower. Otherwise you would fully embrace the perseverance of the saints.

Yes in the Calvernist scheme apparently Jesus ensures your enduring faith and enables the perseverance. So when a person ( such as Derick web ) starts failing ( yes i know the Westminster confess says a caveat of sinning and failing to a degree . My point is that whilst there is an allowance of some hiccups, ultimately you must get to the end to see your saved ( elect ) this is no better than the calvernist lite position ( Arminism) which likewise the emphasis is on your endurance and perseverance.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Please state your case, why do you claim the P does not provide eternal security?

Because the Scheme is based on Election( to salvation) which no calvernist can truly know if he is one of the elect aside from his works . My security is based on the promises of God .

 

[MB]

One of the reasons I started to look into Calvernism properly ( as I started to lean in the direction ) Was the P in T.U.L.I.P.
Perseverance of the Saints. I do believe in Eternal security but the Calvernist version of OSAS I do not believe. My question is : Isnt the P in T.U.L.I.P essentially of Lorship / subtle works salvation?

Of course it is Lord ship salvation. Just like Catholics they believe they can work there way to heaven. If they do no works then they aren't Christian. Sounds like works for Salvation to me.
MB

 

[37818]

Why cant you just trust that because you trusted and believed the Gospel now you are sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. Meaning you don't have to endure to the end to be saved . Especially as enduring to the end is a works gospel . When Jesus says " endure to the end " it's not talking about from when we get saved till we die . It's about those during the tribulation and its about physical death most likely. Either way it's for those ( future) during the trib .

You are not hearing. The saved are eternally saved and as such do endure because God causes them to endure and is tbe one who solely does the saving and the keeping.

The saved know God through Christ. Those who are not yet saved do not as yet know God.

 

[Van]

Because the Scheme is based on Election( to salvation) which no calvernist can truly know if he is one of the elect aside from his works . My security is based on the promises of God .

So we were not chosen for salvation through faith in the truth? I agree the "P" carries baggage not supported in scripture, but generally it refers to eternal security, once saved, always saved.

 

[Van]

You are not hearing. The saved are eternally saved and as such do endure because God causes them to endure and is tbe one who solely does the saving and the keeping.

The saved know God through Christ. Those who are not yet saved do not know God.

I was all set to click the "agree" button but I was a little worried the unsaved "do not know God" might carry the meaning they cannot seek God and put their trust fully in Christ, which of course they have sufficient knowledge of God to do.

 

[Barry Johnson]

So we were not chosen for salvation through faith in the truth? I agree the "P" carries baggage not supported in scripture, but generally it refers to eternal security, once saved, always saved.

chosen or elected is never to salvation..its always to service . No one is chosen ' to be ' saved later . Eternal security I believe is that a person is sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. This has no bearing on endurance or persevering in a sense of 'process ' .

 

[Barry Johnson]

chosen or elected is never to salvation..its always to service . No one is chosen ' to be ' saved later . Eternal security I believe is that a person is sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. This has no bearing on endurance or persevering in a sense of 'process ' .

No one can be ' unsealed '

 

[Van]

chosen or elected is never to salvation..its always to service . No one is chosen ' to be ' saved later . Eternal security I believe is that a person is sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption. This has no bearing on endurance or persevering in a sense of 'process ' .

Sir, 2 Thessalonians says chosen for salvation, not service.

 

[kyredneck]

Do you have some verses to show that an old testament saint had eternal security?

6 For I, Jehovah, change not; therefore ye, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. Mal 3

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13

 

[37818]

I was all set to click the "agree" button but I was a little worried the unsaved "do not know God" might carry the meaning they cannot seek God and put their trust fully in Christ, which of course they have sufficient knowledge of God to do.

Note: John 17;3. 1 John 4:7. 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

 

[AustinC]

Lordship salvation is the idea that all those that are saved must endure till the end to be

I do not understand the problem. Is Jesus not Lord? Is Jesus not Savior? Is Jesus going to fail on his promise when he says he will not leave us nor forsake us?

ok let's see this played out . hopefully I can explain by example. Jesus said only to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel . ok please answer why you dont preach this today ?

The elect are Israel. (Romans 9:6-8)
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the
children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

question 2 before the cross the diciples were preaching the Gospel of the kingdom
. Are you preaching this today?

What do you mean by this? Are you asking if I believe every child of God is a part of the Kingdom? If so, yes. Every child of God, whom God has chosen, is a part of the Kingdom.

I preach what Paul preached in 2 Corinthians 5:11-21.

Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Barry, it seems that you have bought into a hyperdispensationalism that has derailed you from understanding the work of grace throughout all of the Bible, from Adam to the return of Christ Jesus as King, who will rule over his Kingdom for eternity. It may be this hyperdispensationalism which acts as an obstacle to you seeing the whole of scripture. Consider seeing the scripture in light of the covenants God has established with his chosen people. It may help clear up the obvious discomfort you are experiencing.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Sir, 2 Thessalonians says chosen for salvation, not service.

13¶But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
which beginning? when ? The answer if you read the whole letter .Its the 'beginning 'meaning , when Paul first preached the Gospel to them and they ' turned from idols ' ect . The beginning is not the beginning of creation or something strange like that. This is an unfortunately calvernist proof text which is never offered with any context. They need not worry because from the ' beginning ' they were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world? no by sanctification and believing the truth . That's how they were saved . By believing the Gospel . Meaning the method of how God is dealing with Jews and Gentiles .

 

[Barry Johnson]

I do not understand the problem. Is Jesus not Lord? Is Jesus not Savior? Is Jesus going to fail on his promise when he says he will not leave us nor forsake us?


The elect are Israel. (Romans 9:6-8)
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the
children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.


What do you mean by this? Are you asking if I believe every child of God is a part of the Kingdom? If so, yes. Every child of God, whom God has chosen, is a part of the Kingdom.

I preach what Paul preached in 2 Corinthians 5:11-21.

Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Barry, it seems that you have bought into a hyperdispensationalism that has derailed you from understanding the work of grace throughout all of the Bible, from Adam to the return of Christ Jesus as King, who will rule over his Kingdom for eternity. It may be this hyperdispensationalism which acts as an obstacle to you seeing the whole of scripture. Consider seeing the scripture in light of the covenants God has established with his chosen people. It may help clear up the obvious discomfort you are experiencing.

So you think the diciples before Jesus went to the cross were preaching the Gospel as described in 1 cor 15 ??

 

[Barry Johnson]

So you think the diciples before Jesus went to the cross were preaching the Gospel as described in 1 cor 15 ??

Hyperdisp is believing that the new testament begins mid acts and such things as baptism is not for today. neither do I believe.