The P in T.U.L.I.P

[atpollard]

Could you post Roman's 8 .23 please ?

And not in the NLT please lol

Unless it says "Errata: Please disregard the first half of Chapter 8. - Paul." it is irrelevant to God telling us multiple times in 6 verses in 3 different translations that we ARE (present tense) Children of God.

 

[atpollard]

Notice it's the ' spirit ' of adoption.

Not in any of the unambiguous verses that I quoted from 3 different translations.
Now who is reading the Bible through colored glasses?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Unless it says "Errata: Please disregard the first half of Chapter 8. - Paul." it is irrelevant to God telling us multiple times in 6 verses in 3 different translations that we ARE (present tense) Children of God.

Erm Romams 8.23 what's the adoption ? THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY .
what do we recieve when we believe ? THE SPIRIT !!!!!!!!!!!! OF!!!!!!!!!!! ADOPTION. hey I'm just telling you what the bible says . A Child of God IS NOT !!!!!!!! what the adoption in Ephesians 1 and Roman's 8 is talking about. It is yet future. We recieve the blessings as a Full grown son . We become a child of God through the new birth . THE !!!!! ADOPTION is when we are GLORIFIED. FUTURE !!! WE ARE PREDESTINED TO THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY . what Calvernism and soft Calvernism ( Aka Arminism . As both stem from Beza but ultimately Augustine ( Jacob Arminius was a Calvernist under beza but never fully left the system .) what they teach is that the Adoption is when we are saved . But the bible as Roman's 8 . 23 and Eph 1 says is that the adoption is the REDEMPTION OF BODY . Are you glorified yet ? do you have your new body yet ?

 

[atpollard]

Erm Romams 8.23 what's the adoption ? THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY .
what do we recieve when we believe ? THE SPIRIT !!!!!!!!!!!! OF!!!!!!!!!!! ADOPTION. hey I'm just telling you what the bible says . A Child of God IS NOT !!!!!!!! what the adoption in Ephesians 1 and Roman's 8 is talking about. It is yet future. We recieve the blessings as a Full grown son . We become a child of God through the new birth . THE !!!!! ADOPTION is when we are GLORIFIED. FUTURE !!! WE ARE PREDESTINED TO THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY . what Calvernism and soft Calvernism ( Aka Arminism . As both stem from Beza but ultimately Augustine ( Jacob Arminius was a Calvernist under beza but never fully left the system .) what they teach is that the Adoption is when we are saved . But the bible as Roman's 8 . 23 and Eph 1 says is that the adoption is the REDEMPTION OF BODY . Are you glorified yet ? do you have your new body yet ?

How can a Baptist not be familiar with the concept of "ALREADY AND NOT YET"?

• Are your sins forgiven?
• Were they forgiven when Jesus died on the Cross?
• Were they forgiven when you repented?
• Are they forgiven when you confess them?
• Are you a Sinner or a Saint?
• Are you Sinless right now?
• Will you be sinless when you are Glorified?

So tell me "When were/are/will you be free of your sin?"

... Is being "a Child of God" any different?

 

[Yeshua1]

Erm Romams 8.23 what's the adoption ? THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY .
what do we recieve when we believe ? THE SPIRIT !!!!!!!!!!!! OF!!!!!!!!!!! ADOPTION. hey I'm just telling you what the bible says . A Child of God IS NOT !!!!!!!! what the adoption in Ephesians 1 and Roman's 8 is talking about. It is yet future. We recieve the blessings as a Full grown son . We become a child of God through the new birth . THE !!!!! ADOPTION is when we are GLORIFIED. FUTURE !!! WE ARE PREDESTINED TO THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY . what Calvernism and soft Calvernism ( Aka Arminism . As both stem from Beza but ultimately Augustine ( Jacob Arminius was a Calvernist under beza but never fully left the system .) what they teach is that the Adoption is when we are saved . But the bible as Roman's 8 . 23 and Eph 1 says is that the adoption is the REDEMPTION OF BODY . Are you glorified yet ? do you have your new body yet ?

Are we children of God right now?

 

[Barry Johnson]

How can a Baptist not be familiar with the concept of "ALREADY AND NOT YET"?

• Are your sins forgiven?
• Were they forgiven when Jesus died on the Cross?
• Were they forgiven when you repented?
• Are they forgiven when you confess them?
• Are you a Sinner or a Saint?
• Are you Sinless right now?
• Will you be sinless when you are Glorified?

So tell me "When were/are/will you be free of your sin?"

... Is being "a Child of God" .

Well the Point of Ephesians 1 and romans 8.23 is that we are WAITING for something . What's that ? THE ADOPTION ? what's that we are WAITING for ? That in so many places in the bible . that is the whole point of ' future salvation ' That through suffering we cling to this wonderful expectation . What the bible constantly over and over points to as the ' hope ' that we are looking forward to . Chapter after chapter on how we still wrestle with this ' body of death ' . On how we still struggle with sin in this body and how we will until ? until when ? no not the ' already not yet ' catch phrase. This doesnt cover it . Otherwise the whole of romans 7 makes no sense if its ' Already not yet ' We dont have a Glorified body do we ? your not now enjoying a sin free existence. So the ADOPTION which is not the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION is future . its Predestined but its not happened yet . THE ADOPTION IS THE REDEMPTION!!!!!!!! OF !!!!!!!!!!!! THE BODY . which is not currently experienced.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Are we children of God right now?

Because of Western thinking this is gets messed up. A child of God is related to the New birth . The creation eagerly awaits ' THE MANIFESTATION of the Sons of God .
Again we receive the spirit of adoption which is not THE ADOPTION . We are still not as we will be . we await the Adoption . If your theory was true it would say predestined to the spirit of Adoption . But Rom 8 .23 says we are awaiting the Adoption . I'm sticking with what the bible says .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Are we children of God right now?

We are sons of God only in he sense of the new birth and the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION. but no one is predestined to this . After we recieve the Spirit of adoption we are sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption ( predestined) reformed theology teaches that predestination is a selection to being saved . which is found no where in the bible beyond proof texting .

 

[Barry Johnson]

We are sons of God only in he sense of the new birth and the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION. but no one is predestined to this . After we recieve the Spirit of adoption we are sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption ( predestined) reformed theology teaches that predestination is a selection to being saved . which is found no where in the bible beyond proof texting .

Being a child of God in a sinful body is not the Adoption . Rom 8.23

 

[Barry Johnson]

Not in any of the unambiguous verses that I quoted from 3 different translations.
Now who is reading the Bible through colored glasses?

And yet the bible clearly distinguishes we recieve the SPIRIT of adoption and THE adoption . unless you are currently walking around like Jesus after the resurrection, walking through walls ect . ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

And yet the bible clearly distinguishes we recieve the SPIRIT of adoption and and not THE adoption when we are born again . unless you are currently walking around like Jesus after the resurrection, walking through walls ect . ?

 

[AustinC]

Erm Romams 8.23 what's the adoption ? THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY .
what do we recieve when we believe ? THE SPIRIT !!!!!!!!!!!! OF!!!!!!!!!!! ADOPTION. hey I'm just telling you what the bible says . A Child of God IS NOT !!!!!!!! what the adoption in Ephesians 1 and Roman's 8 is talking about. It is yet future. We recieve the blessings as a Full grown son . We become a child of God through the new birth . THE !!!!! ADOPTION is when we are GLORIFIED. FUTURE !!! WE ARE PREDESTINED TO THE REDEMPTION OF THE BODY . what Calvernism and soft Calvernism ( Aka Arminism . As both stem from Beza but ultimately Augustine ( Jacob Arminius was a Calvernist under beza but never fully left the system .) what they teach is that the Adoption is when we are saved . But the bible as Roman's 8 . 23 and Eph 1 says is that the adoption is the REDEMPTION OF BODY . Are you glorified yet ? do you have your new body yet ?

Barry, you are forcing your hyperdispensationalism into the text.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, you are forcing your hyperdispensationalism into the text.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
just preaching the word.

 

[AustinC]

We are sons of God only in he sense of the new birth and the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION. but no one is predestined to this . After we recieve the Spirit of adoption we are sealed by the Holy spirit until the day of redemption ( predestined) reformed theology teaches that predestination is a selection to being saved . which is found no where in the bible beyond proof texting .

Barry, many others have proved you wrong on this issue. Here you are stating a false doctrine of your own creation. atpollard has done a marvelous job of refuting your false concept. You can dig your heels in if you must, but you have lost this debate by a wide margin.
Moving on...

 

[Barry Johnson]

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
just preaching the word.

Why would we be groaning for the adoption if we already have it ? Why are we waiting for the adoption ?
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, many others have proved you wrong on this issue. Here you are stating a false doctrine of your own creation. atpollard has done a marvelous job of refuting your false concept. You can dig your heels in if you must, but you have lost this debate by a wide margin.
Moving on...

All I could read there was blah blah and no content . Just the usual avoiding the texts .

 

[AustinC]

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us th groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
just preaching the word.

You realize that Paul is addressing the elect, who are already adopted, chosen and predestined when he tells us about how the Spirit makes intercession for us. I notice you cut off the verses at 27 and choose not to add the verses afterward. Why is that? Let us look at verses 27 through 39 so you can see clearly that Paul is talking in the present tense.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God's will. And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.


What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all - how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? Who will bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we encounter death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we have complete victory through him who loved us! For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have bolded the phrases Paul uses. Notice the present tense being used. The text proves your contention to be incorrect.

 

[AustinC]

All I could read there was blah blah and no content . Just the usual avoiding the texts .

This is merely your failure to comprehend. I'm sorry for your troubles.

 

[Barry Johnson]

You realize that Paul is addressing the elect ( elected to what ? Election is always to service never to be saved , who are already adopted, ( As already proven. The adoption is when we recieve our new bodies ) chosen ( chosen for what ? ) and predestined ( Yes we are predestined toward for future Adoptiom ) when he tells us about how the Spirit makes intercession for us. I notice you cut off the verses at 27 and choose not to add the verses afterward. Why is that? Let us look at verses 27 through 39 so you can see clearly that Paul is talking in the present tense. but first look at Galations 4
5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. ( Spirit of Adoption )
6¶And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.( Spirit . not the manifest Adoption )
7Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8¶Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God's will. And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew ( notice Galations 4 v 9 this is when we ate ' known ' of God ' foreknow ' intimately) he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son ( When does this happen ? The adoption, to wit the redemption of the body ) , that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined,( After they are saved he also called( to service ) ; and those he called, ( to service ) he also justified; ( as it says ) and those he justified, he also glorified. They are Glorified


What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all - how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? Who will bring any charge against God's elect?( The ones chosen for service ) It is God who justifies. Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we encounter death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we have complete victory through him who loved us! For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have bolded the phrases Paul uses. Notice the present tense being used. The text proves your contention to be incorrect.

Yes . ok let's lay aside your Augustine theology and simply read the text . When a

 

[37818]

All the 5 points are destructive. the P is not eternal security..

In your understanding. I am not Calvinist. Essentually the Calvinist P is tbe eternal security of the believer, tbe very same Scriptures we use.