The point of intoxication

Why do you suppose verse 8 says that God is holding the cup? (Verse 7 gives a clue.)

 

Verse gives a clue also. He pours out... but the dregs thereof the wicked wring out and drink the alcohol.

If what you say is correct, then the wicked are saying 'God, you aren't punishing us enough', then they punish themselves more. Does not make sense

 

Spotted your following post on the closed thread of this subject so could not respond. SOooo, believe you deserve the courtesy of an answer. Thanks -

Now what kind of miracle would that be to make "grape juice" saving the best for last? You've really got to know your stuff to make the "best" wine ever. His Mama had faith that He could do it, and I believe He did make the Best Ever Wine. Even better than what Noah made. If anybody needed to be cheered up, Noah would be one of my top picks. Every one learns as they go along. We can take a good thing and make it work against us, but we know even though Noah got drunk, he was not a drunkard.

And wine is the symbol of blood. His blood is "Pure". Wasn't Jesus' body broken, i.e. cracked to pass through - "refined", or freed from impurities? Wine is grape juice "refined".

Noah got drunk on the fruit of the vine. Wine is of the vine and this is the first we hear about wine. How can we just disregard scripture that informs it is given to man to cheer the heart, for cerebrations, sacrifices, toasts, deaths, and to remember? Noah did some very hard work over a long period of time. Perhaps there was not wine on the other side of the great deluge, but we see it appears just at the right time to "reward" this good and faithful servant Noah.

Fermentation is a chemical reaction, and alcohol acts as a superior preservative, than sugar, therefore is not corrupted as is grape juice. Vinegar "cuts" just as does His Word.

How could you attribute what I said to John coming near even a "grape vine". Believe you will find I never intimated that John drank. I said His diet (food and drink) was the opposite of that of Jesus. We know John could not even touch a grape, so we both know he would never drink grape juice or wine.

Perhaps you are as I (the beginning of Macular Degeneration), and the sight deteriorating, so perhaps you never watch TV; read the paper, or magazines, or even listen to radio. I've had a heart condition over the years. Not only wine, but also one to two drinks (alochol) has been recommended to to me to be very "heart healthy". It has worked for over 50 years. My Dad had a heart attack in 1960, and His Heart Doctor prescribed wine as the best choice over cokes, coffee, tea or any other beverage. He died at age 70.

Just laid to rest a dear friend aged 90, a couple of drinks daily for over 75 years. I believe the Bible could very well be right about this stuff.
I've never heard of anyone, even a preacher suggest "grape juice". Just about every Cardiologist I know, or read about believes evidence points to one, and not more two drinks daily is beneficial for the patient. They leave it up to the patient.

Amazing how easily you contradict His Word. The Bible will interpret itself when divided out correctly. You choose to ignore scripture, and the reason for wine which we find in Psalms 104:14-15 informing wine is a good thing when used responsibly. Paul does not contradict.

Your diagnosis I believe is far afield. This young preacher needs more attention then the other young preacher Titus. Perhaps not as mature, and could be on the "shy" side, giving evidence at this stage perhaps nervous, or has not yet hit his stride. Paul evidently felt he needed something to calm his nerves. Stress, and virus' bring on most of our "stomach" problems. Note Paul does not use the word "bowels" but stomach which gives the clue for the use of fermented grape juce. Grape juice would do no better than apple juice to relax the stomach.

The Islamic nation doesn't believe Paul, Jesus Christ or our Bible under any circumstances. What have we to do with them? There are many "cults" different than we that believe just as you. Every one of them are of "works", and do not have the "liberty and freedom" that we Christians have in Christ. I'll not join in with any of those beliefs outside of Christ. You are free to believe as they, and I'll not condemn you. I just do not believe as do you or they in this matter.


God chose the Hebrew to make His nation from Abraham and Sarah through Isaac, and Jacob. He chose Israel and tells us He came for no one else but them. He did not care about heathen, and he did not care about me…….Until after Damascus Road. Today He does not care about any (although He loves the world) that does not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and includes those that do, or do not drink wine.

Why do you praise the evil people that do not understand our God? Unbelievable. Evil rejects the word, and those that bring "bread and wine". This is what the "terriosts" nations do.

God bends over backward to help us in this situation we got ourselves into. He told His people to take their tithe money if they could not get to the Temple and buy what ever their heart desired, specifically telling them it is OK to spend it all if they with on wine, and/or strong drink. I believe God as He speaks. We are to know, understand, and believe what He tells us. I'll not endeavor to tell Him he made a mistake in giving to man that which "cheers the heart of man". It is His doing, and not the Evil One.

Jesus' heart was heavy as He went to His Father. Psalms 104:15 is for us. His heart will not be made glad until He drinks the wine with His Apostles, and also us - "This do in remembrance of me", until I can join you for I took the vow of the Nazarite at the Cross.

 

No, fundamental Baptists are not gnostics.
Yes this is the Baptist Only section of the BB.
Please post only in the section of the board reserved for non-Baptists, that is, the Other Christian Denominations Forum, and some of the other related forums that non-Baptists are permitted to post in. Your cooperation in keeping the rules that you agreed to when you signed up with this board will be appreciated. Thank you.
DHK

 

Of course it is not a denominational issue. But this is a Baptist forum. (No offense.) So again, sayonara!

As for Proverbs, that is where the strongest OT injunctions are against alcohol.

As for a Baptist being a Gnostic, the issue of alcohol and Baptists has nothing to do with gnosticism. Baptists have a long tradition of teetotalism.

 

Not only do true Baptist's hold to the tradition of teetotalism, but they pattern themselves after the Son of God who was a teetotaler Himself!

 

Were Adam and Eve Israelites?
Was Noah?
Didn't God love them?
God sent Jonah to the Ninevehites. Why? Becaused he cared and loved more than one nation on this world. Read the book of Jonah and note God's words to Jonah about the Ninevehites in the last chapter.
Did God love Rahab the harlot, a Canaanite? She became one of the ancestors of Christ. So did Ruth, a Moabite? She wasn't an Israelite either. By your standard God never came and offered his love to her either. "He didn't care about the heathen" (like Ruth and Rahab) are your exact words. They are quite offesive words and do not depict the God that I serve or perhaps better put, do not depict an accurate picture of the God of the Bible.

Jesus loved them and you just as much as he loved any other individual in this world. He is immutable. There is no one that God doesn't love any more than you. That was just as true before you were saved as it was after.

You know little about the love of Christ, and the reason he died for us.

The Bible says give honor where honor is due? Do you think that your government is any less wicked? Are they all born again believers living for Christ? One lost sinner is just as unsaved as another lost sinner no matter what their denominational or religious background is. If they are lost they are lost. A Catholic is just as lost as a Muslim. And if the Catholic driniks and gets drunk, and the Muslim doesn't, who is better off? The Muslim has less chance of committing murder accordding to MADD. A good thing to remeber is that it is God that raises up governments, and God that puts them down. We get the kind of government that we deserve.

Are you taking Scripture out of context? I think so. I notice that you didn't provide and reference for such a claim as that.

There is no wine there. It is the fruit of the vine, commonly known as grape juice. Read your Bible more closely.
DHK

 

DHK,

Where ituttut is getting that buy wine and strong drink from is Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 14:26 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

But, he is taking it out of context. He is turning a non alcoholic wine into an alcoholic wine. I have already pointed this out through a page out of a book, letting scripture interpret scripture, but he rejects it.

 

Quote:
Deuteronomy 14:26 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Those proponents of moderation with respect to intoxicating beverages might suggest that this text sanctions and encourages the drinking of beer and alcoholic wine. To be fair, it appears to be so, but this is not the case. In examining this passage we will learn that the book of Deuteronomy furnishes us with a perfect example of the following:

A) a correct understanding of the generic words which are used for "wine" and "strong drink" respectfully.
B) a proper application of the law of context
C) a complete understanding of God's view on the subject of drinking.

Now in returning to the text, we will see that the Bible itself conclusively refutes any suggestions whatsoever that this text endorses the use of alcoholic drinks.

We have already learned in our studies that the words translated "wine" [yayin] and "strong drink" [shekar] here are generic, and may refer to fresh grape juice and a sweet pleasant drink which was unfermented. What kind of beverage is this verse referring to? Since it may be argued that this text can be interpreted according to one's own particular bias, the answer is very simple. Deuteronomy 29:6 explains:
Quote:
Deuteronomy 29:6 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.

Here this passage proves that the "wine" and "strong drink" in chapter 14: 26 cannot be the same as that mentioned here! The inspired text later goes on to explain in no uncertain terms exactly what kind of wine the Jews did drink. It reads:
Quote:
Deuteronomy 32:14 14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.

Here Moses names among the many blessings of the Lord, pure fresh grape juice known as "the blood of the grape" which was highly esteemed.

excerpt from "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence" by Leighton G. Campbell pp. 91, 92

As we know and agree that Scripture must interpret Scripture, my friend Leighton has carefully studied out the Scripture and showed without a doubt that the wine and strong drink shown in Deuteronomy 14:26 is indeed unfermented wine.

 

I really don't care to be so blunt, but I endeavor to answer in kind, to a point.

Sure. He loves us all. Why do you question His Word. Why don't you ask God to explain it to you. The above is true, but it offends you. We are to believe and not question His ways. All I know is what His Word says. Do you doubt He said He only came for His lost sheep of Israel, and not the heathen dogs? "But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs", Matthew 15:26. Go to Him in prayer for understanding.

Did I say that, or did I repeat what Jesus said of the Gentile woman while He was on earth? Take your unbelief to Him Christian friend. You accuse falsely.

But I'm happy you brought up Jonah. I know you wish to "exhort" in love just as I, so I'll do so here. You show lack of depth and understanding in this post and quite blatant in your distain for me, and understanding His Word . You have been listening to man for your understanding. You as most believe every thing has been the same since the beginning. To understand YOUR salvation YOU must understand the gospel of Paul which is the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven for we today. Time for a short Sunday school lesson, from the Bible on the Book of Jonah.


We are to realize we have no way of knowing what is said in the OT until it is later revealed. We must understand the crucifixion of Jesus Christ (events before He is placed in the earth, while in the earth, the resurrection, and things thereafter). We must understand Pentecost and its duration. And we can understand nothing of our justification through faith, or the Body of Christ; and also the "rapture" our "circumcision and baptism without hands" without believing the gospel of Paul. We know nothing of OUR salvation today until we began at Acts 9 then into the Epistles of Paul.

Jonah is the book of "resurrection". The people that make the Catholic Easter and Christmas their Holy Days, do not understand the resurrection as God wishes. Easter cannot be found in Scripture, nor can Christmas. Where can we find these errors in scripture? We can't. All Christ asked is that we "remember Him in One way", with the bread and the cup in our one faith, hope, body, Spirit, and baptism.

The purpose of this story of Jonah, a real happening, is that Jesus Christ was in the earth for three full nights and three full days. Friday could not have been the day Christ Jesus was crucified. Friday could not have been the day of the "preparation".

But laying that aside for the moment another purpose of the greatest of importance in Jonah is to show Israel will refuse Messiah, and after the resurrection (three days and three nights) Jesus Christ would see the Gentile would receive and believe His Word. The gospel of grace through faith would not be thwarted, or spoiled.

Israel refused Messiah forcing the Cross, and continued for a year after Pentecost, bringing on the event of Damascus Road a few years later. Don't read the Book of Jonah as just a nice little story about a man and a big fish. Look and you will see Israel rejecting Messiah. Don't read the Epistles of Paul, and Acts 9, without understanding that the Book of Jonah speaks to mysteries, which God has unveiled.

Do you see what I see and the Bible divided correctly for understanding? The Book of Jonah shows God was thinking of the Gentile then, just as you say. And they did believe Jonah's message in that day. But please notice that great Gentile city of Nineveh was completely destroyed by God some good number of years afterwards.

I believe what His Word will allow and all through the Bible we see God dealing with His creation. But we have to keep things in perspective. We must believe what we are told to believe "while we live", and not deny what He tells us of the past, or of the future.

Is there any way in the world we can see the "mysteries" of God before there time. So many say justification has always been the same from the beginning. Don't you believe it. The uncircumcised are justified through faith. This is the gospel of grace in which Christ chose Paul to present to the World, giving we Gentiles the authority to carry this gospel of grace through faith to all today. We are to be divorced from that gospel of justification by faith (with works) required of all since the beginning - Hebrews 11.

Don't forget to notice Tarshish and the gourd in Jonah. Tarshish the Gentile city was before Jonah. Paul had papers in hand and probably within sight of the Gentile City of Damascus. This killer, Gestapo leader was rounding up members of the Jewish Pentecostal church to take back for judgments by those of the Sanhedrin. Acts 9:5, "………. it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Just pure coincidence of these two little items? You can see you are barking up the wrong tree thinking I believe God didn't love the "heathen" also. We are to know all were Gentiles before His began His own nation, in that we know He loves us all.

The mysteries in this little Book of Jonah were not revealed to us until God was ready. Enter Christ Jesus from heaven as He chooses His Apostle to the Gentile, and also the Jew for today. The "secret" of God remains still hidden from many today, even those that "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation" as found in Acts 16:28-31.

 

Continued of Post 50 to DHK

Please try to understand you are not arguing with me, but Jesus.

N/C

Which is better off? The one that says they believe in Jesus Christ as their savior. Your judgment is in the carnal mind, not of the Spirit. But we are still in these bodies and we are still to obey the Word while we are still on this earth. Your hate for a fellow Christian is showing through, and the hate you have for MY country.

How easily you condemn those you think are lost. Isn't a Baptist just as lost as a Catholic, if they do not believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation? We know those such as the Muslim are left to God to judge for they do not believe on the "only begotten Son of God.

It would seem that I understand more about the Love of God than you are showing here."

I show what is acceptable to God then, and we find it is still acceptable, if we wish, to drink what we will within reason. He gave them permission in the dispensation of Deuteronomy 14:23-26. In the dispensation of Matthew 9:17, and Luke 7:33, and others, plus in our dispensation found in I Timothy 5:23, as well as others that show wine means fermented wine, and not "grape juice".

Decipher Romans 14:21 for us using your misapplication of the word "wine". "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." As you suppose me to be "weak", why do you insist that wine means "grape juice". Will that not make me "stumble" in your eyes for I had no idea it was not good for us to drink "grape juice". And just to think, all my life people such as you have told me it is OK to drink "grape juice". So very many place confusion in front of the "babes", knowing they will believe the error.

 

You just quoted what I said, and I gave it in the context of the setting it is given in His Word.

You do know you are making no sense with your lack of understanding. Why would His people be told they could feel free to drink "grape juice"? That would be the same as saying its OK for them to drink "milk". God is telling them He gives His permission to go have a "good time" with their Tithe money. He says my blessing is given to you to go "live it up", and make your "heart glad" if you wish with "wine", and even strong drink. Celebrate in My name. Your soul needs lifted up so do what ever you desire with "your money that I have blessed you with".

How can you in all good conscious say such things after reading such verses as Ephesians 5:18, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit"? Wine can make you drunk. Paul does not say you cannot have wine, but don't be a drunkard. I've yet to see anyone drunk after drinking a glass of "grape juice".

 

:sleeping_2:

Personal insult removed

 

Sure, God is saying, 'Go ahead and poison your bodies, with that which from the moment it enters the bloodstream alters ones thinking process. Go ahead and live it up. Eat, drink and be merry. Get stinking drunk.'

NOT!

More foolish babbling from a moderation advocate.

 

Apparently you are blind to the twisting of the Word of God that teaches total abstinence.

 

Personal insult removed

 

Moderator warning

This forum is being heavily monitored----basically because of the demand for maturity in posting----personal insults and attacks will not be tolerated----next time--the thread will be closed tight!!!

Bro. Davud

 

Dear SWL,

Well here's my attempt to bring this thread back around to your original intent.

To answer your questions - my limit when eating out is two beers. When at my own home, or someone else's home for an extended (like three or four hours) period, my limit might expand to three or four beers.

Any more than two beers in a short period of time and I definitely begin to get drowzy.

Hope this helps.

Les

 

Please read just one more time relevant scripture. "Deuteronomy 14:26, "And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household".

First ask yourself; do I really believe what God says? If not then why are you discussing things you don't believe? If you do believe the Word of God, then remove your non sense in order for you to make sense of what you are reading. It says "or for whatsoever they soul desireth". As you contend wine is NONALCOHLIC, He is telling you believe what you will, but you are to also understand if I wish to have WINE, He approves my choice for myself. He gave me His permission.

Why are you and others not understanding our freedom and liberty in Christ judging us, and bring judgment upon your own heads for unbelief in His Word?

I see understanding in this post, not insults, but enlightenment.