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The pre-wrath rapture view

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I

Iconoclast

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Yeshua1 said:
Do you see then the Great tribulation as what happened to tsreal in AD 70?

If so, then would not that also mean that the second coming happened at that time?
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No.....it was a coming in judgment which happened several times in the ot.

The second coming is the last day.
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

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Iconoclast said:
No.....it was a coming in judgment which happened several times in the ot.

The second coming is the last day.
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Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Maybe i take the Bible too literally, but to ME, immediately means immediately.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Iconoclast said:
No.....it was a coming in judgment which happened several times in the ot.

The second coming is the last day.
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Several times? This is a failure to take the Bible literally as it was meant to.
The Great Tribulation = Jacob's Trouble = Daniel's 70th Week = 7 years of God's wrath.
And yet you say it is a coming in judgment which happened "several times"? You are ignoring the plain truth of God's Word.
 
I

Iconoclast

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DHK said:
Several times? This is a failure to take the Bible literally as it was meant to.
The Great Tribulation = Jacob's Trouble = Daniel's 70th Week = 7 years of God's wrath.
And yet you say it is a coming in judgment which happened "several times"? You are ignoring the plain truth of God's Word.
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You are unable to understand what I posted.
You confess that satan rules your world.
I confess Jesus rules as Lord right now. Jesus rules this universe...the world included.
You can call me names,but it does not help your cause....not a bit.
 
Internet Theologian

Internet Theologian

Well-Known Member
JonShaff said:
Icon,

For the record, i Notice you avoid discussion over Romans 11. Why is that?
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Come on JonShaff, you know all Calvinist Bibles end with Romans 9!!! :p

Iconoclast said:
You are unable to understand what I posted.
You confess that satan rules your world.
I confess Jesus rules as Lord right now. Jesus rules this universe...the world included.
You can call me names,but it does not help your cause....not a bit.
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A perfunctory look at the parables of Matthew 13 would show anyone the Kingdom here now, and its analogies of that, but many miss it altogether. Perhaps JonShaff can tell us why what is depicted via parables is taking place as of now?

Not to mention Colossians 1:13. It takes a good bit of theological gymnastics to get away from it, like having to read the Left Behind series to re-calibrate ones mind and having to say 'Hail Tim LaHaye' 1000 times!
 
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JonShaff

JonShaff

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Iconoclast said:
Jon.....in post 102.....when do you believe that all happens...
Where do you see it?
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Revelation 19
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

At the End of the Great Tribulation.
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

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Internet Theologian said:
Come on JonShaff, you know all Calvinist Bibles end with Romans 9!!! :p



A perfunctory look at the parables of Matthew 13 would show anyone the Kingdom here now, and its analogies of that, but many miss it altogether. Perhaps JonShaff can tell us why what is depicted via parables is taking place as of now?

Not to mention Colossians 1:13. It takes a good bit of theological gymnastics to get away from it, like having to read the Left Behind series to re-calibrate ones mind and having to say 'Hail Tim LaHaye' 1000 times!
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Oh i'd love to discuss the parables.

What say ye of this?

Luke 17:21
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
 
I

Iconoclast

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JonShaff said:
Icon,

It's important that we see the "Near/Far Prophetic Fulfillment" as Well as "Dual Fulfillment" when discussing prophecy.
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The dual fulfillment idea is a falsehood to be able to deny the verses saying what they say

Look at acts 2:16....this is that spoken of by Joel.....
He did not say;
This is part of it, more later
This is like that
This is what it will be like
This is a preview
No...he said this is that.

You claim to be literal
What did Jesus mean when He said there are some here who will not see death before they see these things?
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonShaff said:
Revelation 19
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

At the End of the Great Tribulation.
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Jon....if you are literal here....how do the stars fall from the heaven....
How does the sun no longer give light?
 
JonShaff

JonShaff

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Iconoclast said:
The dual fulfillment idea is a falsehood to be able to deny the verses saying what they say

Look at acts 2:16....this is that spoken of by Joel.....
He did not say;
This is part of it, more later
This is like that
This is what it will be like
This is a preview
No...he said this is that.

You claim to be literal
What did Jesus mean when He said there are some here who will not see death before they see these things?
Click to expand...

You are claiming what he did and did not say.

So what about the Rest of Joel?
 
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