Wrong, same thing, you have not studied this...no need to interact.
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The problem of sin .
- Thread starter Barry Johnson
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Wrong, same thing, you have not studied this...no need to interact.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Amen.
Isaiah 64:6.
The works that were paid for?
I'm getting confused.
Will men be judged according to their works, or were all those evil works paid for at the cross?
If all the evil works of men were paid for at the cross, I'll need to know where the "missing link" is, that takes sins that were paid for at the cross, and "unpays" them for the unbeliever.
Do you know of any passages that give us an "indemnity clause"?
Unbelief is a sin according to John 16:9.
If all the sins of all men were paid for at the cross,
then that includes the sin of unbelief.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Scripture please?
I know of some that tell me that my sins were imputed to Him ( Romans 4:23-25 ),
but I don't know of any that tell me that Adam's sin was imputed to Christ.
Again, Scripture please.
OK....
But where did Abraham's faith come from?
Hint:
Hebrews 12:2, Galatians 2:16-20.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Belief is a work, but it is a work of God ( John 6:29 ).
But if I'm understanding you correctly...
You believe that God relied on Abraham's choice in favor of God, in order to grant him salvation?
I have no idea how you reach this conclusion.
Spreading the Gospel not only fulfills God's commands,
but it is the means whereby God notifies His children of their gift of eternal life.
Our existence as believers is to glorify God and to do the work that He has set before us ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
Whether teachers, preachers, etc, we all have spiritual gifts ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).;
And, not everyone is an evangelist.
But I think you're missing something, Quantrill...
With election, there is nothing left up to "chance".
There are vessels of mercy afore prepared to glory, and there are vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ( Romans 9:22-24 ).
Unless you don't believe that God chooses sinners to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 )?
Of course.
Stated above.
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Time to try another tact at communication. Is the idea God puts believers into Christ new to you?
And I said you can believe till the cows come home, it does not result in salvation. Only when God alone credits your faith as righteousness, does God alone put you into Christ.
Why change the subject. Do you agree or disagree that only when a person is placed into Christ, do the listed actions occur. A simple yes or no would be a step.
Where is John 6:37 mentioned in the OT? What does John 12:32, where Christ dying for all humankind, dying on the cross, high and lifted up, which results in His lovingkindness toward us drawing all who behold His sacrifice to Him. I think this is a change of subject, but for what reason I cannot guess.
Time to try another tact at communication. Is the idea God puts us into Christ something new to you.
Very true. This applies to any position. 20/20 is never from within.
Amen.
Isaiah 64:6.
The works that were paid for?
I'm getting confused.
Will men be judged according to their works, or were all those evil works paid for at the cross?
If all the evil works of men were paid for at the cross, I'll need to know where the "missing link" is, that takes sins that were paid for at the cross, and "unpays" them for the unbeliever.
Do you know of any passages that give us an "indemnity clause"?
Unbelief is a sin according to John 16:9.
If all the sins of all men were paid for at the cross,
then that includes the sin of unbelief.
All sin was paid for by Christ. Your 'missing link' is Christ. The appropriation of the blood to the individual occurs only when an individual comes to Christ. (Rom. 4:24)
Just like the Passover. If the blood is seen, no judgement. If the blood is not seen, judgement. The blood on the door posts didn't just appear. The individual must apply it.
Quantrill
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(2 Cor. 5:21) "For he hath made him to be sin for us...." (Rom. 5:18) "...by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
See (Rom. 5:12-14) Adam's sin must be dealt with as it is why all are condemned as (5:18) also shows. Even though God did not impute sins to those not under the law, they died because of Adams sin. (5:14)
(1 John 2:2) (Rom. 4:24)
What does the origin of Abraham's faith have to do with what we are discussing?
Quantrill
Righteousness was not imputed to Abraham till he could do nothing but believe. (Gen. 15:6) The same occurs with the Christian. (Rom. 4:22-24)
The Cross and Blood of Christ provides the means by which such an action can be implemented. But it is not implemented until faith is exercised.
Spreading the Gospel is certainly necessary. For how shall one believe if they don't know what to believe. (Rom. 10:9-14)
Everyone, Christian, is a witness for Christ.
Nothing I have said is against the doctrine of election.
Quantrill
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I think you're missing the ramifications, Quantrill.
If even unbelievers sins were paid for at the cross, then they are forgiven.
Christ acted as their appeasement to God, and God's wrath towards their sin no longer exists.
That's universal atonement which leads to universal salvation.
According to His word,God cannot judge someone for sins that are paid for.
To do so would make Him unrighteous in His judgments, which He most definitely is not.
Christ paid for the sins of His people ( Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ).
You really don't see it, do you?
" Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." ( Romans 4:23-25 ).
Belief doesn't secure anything.
Belief is a work of God ( John 6:29 ), Quantrill...
Therefore, if a person believes, it's because they are one of Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ), chosen in Him from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
The "if" in verse 24 is a qualifier, not a condition that man can meet, in and of ourselves.
Those that believe have had their trespasses imputed to Christ, and His righteousness imputed to them...
At the cross, my friend.
Everything...
For without God's gift of faith ( Ephesians 2:8 ), no one would truly believe on Christ, and no one of God's children would be able to make it through this life ( without giving up on Him ) that is filled with its many trials, tribulations and persecutions.
Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness...
But without God acting upon Abraham in graciously regenerating him ( changing his heart from one of rebellion to one of being at peace with God ), Abraham would still be in his sins and not caring about the things of God.
He would have never believed God's word.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Amen.
Again, I encourage you to search the Scriptures for one that blatantly say that we, as believers, actually do the applying when we believe.
Until then, I will go on what is declared and what I understand from them:
The Passover is a physical picture of what would later happen, spiritually, at the cross and for His elect.
God applied Christ's blood to each and every one of His people at the cross ( Romans 5:6-11, Colossians 2:13-14 ), my friend...
We couldn't "apply" anything in and of ourselves;
Being without strength, dead in trespasses and sins, and powerless to even believe God in our wretched state before He acted upon us in His grace and mercy.
Any other way makes salvation a cooperative work of men,
and God's work of salvation is a pure and unadulterated work, start to finish.
If it were cooperative in any way, then we would potentially have something ( no matter how small and seemingly insignificant ) to boast about.
It would also constitute works on our part, and would be a violation of Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 and Ephesians 2:9 and of His holiness.
God will not have man's unholy works to pollute His perfect work of saving someone, Quantrill.
The objects of that salvation stand on nothing except His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5-7 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Again, we're right back to where does "saving" faith ( the faith that accompanies God's gift of eternal life ) actually come from...
Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2, Galatians 2:16-20 ).
I still don't think you're seeing it yet;
For God to rely on an action of men, would make God reliant upon something outside of Himself and His efforts to justify someone...
It is God alone that justifies ( Romans 8:33 ) someone in His sight.
Amen, Quantrill.
Without a preacher, how shall one know of their sinful condition before God and His provision for them to have hope in?
They cannot.
But not everyone has the gift of preaching, and not everyone is an evangelist.
We each have our gifts in the body.
I agree that every one of God's children is commanded to give an answer to those that ask, for the hope that is within them ( 1 Peter 3:15 ).
"Witnessing" is done to bear witness to who we are as believers in Christ Jesus.
But evangelizing ( preaching the cross through the word of God to those who do not believe ) is done by someone who has the God-given gift of evangelism...
Which not every one of us have.
With that said, I wish you well, sir.
I encourage you to study His words deeply, and know that He will always reward them that diligently seek Him ( Hebrews 11:6 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
To respond to the OP:
The problem of sin is that it is pervasive and permeates everything that man touches.
Until sin is dealt with, God will not have a relationship with His rebellious subjects.
The remedy is two-fold...
1) Satisfy His righteousness and judgment by providing a sin-bearer.
Man cannot effect his own absolution, so another representative was needed:
God giving Himself as a perfect sin-bearer in the Person of Jesus Christ,
the Lamb of God who was declared slain from the foundation of the world.
The passages in God's word are easy to find for those that go searching, so I will not be listing them.
2) Man cannot be trusted in his warped condition, to ever not fall into sin again without the source of the problem being dealt with...
Love of sin and hatred towards God for commanding us to turn from it and towards Him.
"Regeneration", or a change of heart ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ) is the prescription,
and a glorified body that bears no taint of the sin that remained, is the final piece.
Only then can the sin problem be rectified,
and only then can the Lord be completely at peace with those who once were His enemies in their hearts and minds through wicked works.
Again, the passages that declare this are easy to find for those who diligently study His word...
So again, I will not be listing them.
May God bless you all in your studies, and may He be pleased to show you many wonderful and even sobering things to you in His precious word.
The problem of sin is that it is pervasive and permeates everything that man touches.
Until sin is dealt with, God will not have a relationship with His rebellious subjects.
The remedy is two-fold...
1) Satisfy His righteousness and judgment by providing a sin-bearer.
Man cannot effect his own absolution, so another representative was needed:
God giving Himself as a perfect sin-bearer in the Person of Jesus Christ,
the Lamb of God who was declared slain from the foundation of the world.
The passages in God's word are easy to find for those that go searching, so I will not be listing them.
2) Man cannot be trusted in his warped condition, to ever not fall into sin again without the source of the problem being dealt with...
Love of sin and hatred towards God for commanding us to turn from it and towards Him.
"Regeneration", or a change of heart ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ) is the prescription,
and a glorified body that bears no taint of the sin that remained, is the final piece.
Only then can the sin problem be rectified,
and only then can the Lord be completely at peace with those who once were His enemies in their hearts and minds through wicked works.
Again, the passages that declare this are easy to find for those who diligently study His word...
So again, I will not be listing them.
May God bless you all in your studies, and may He be pleased to show you many wonderful and even sobering things to you in His precious word.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Hey we disagree. Were not in a vacuum here. Your not the only one who holds to the reformed view of Romans 9 and I'm not the only one who holds to a non calvinistic version of Romans 9 . Romans 9 is simply about Israel and their temporary judicial hardening . Outside of Calvinism Romans 9 is just simple verses about Israel.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
I notice your not demonstrating your disagreement from any verses ? Just hot air ?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
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