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The problem of sin .
- Thread starter Barry Johnson
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Colossians 1:20 NASB
and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Sir, I have been explaining my view of scripture, but you have not been acknowledging or offering an alternate view. You seem just to move on and ask another question. Please acknowledge my views.
Through Him means by means of Him, or more specifically, by means of His sacrifice, or even more specifically by means of His shed blood, for without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22
So the things (people placed into Christ) are reconciled by means of His blood. (Matthew 26:28)
Same idea, those with whom God has made peace, were through or by means of His blood, thus those placed in Christ. (Romans 5:1)
Now the things (born anew believers) are on earth (still living) or in the heavens (the human spirits in heaven).
In summary:
Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
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That is not what I said, you can believe till the cows come home, recall the second and third soil of Matthew 13, and those who had cried "Lord, Lord" in Matthew 7. Only when God credits your faith as righteousness, does He place you into Christ, and only when you are in Christ are you:
1) Saved forever
2) Redeemed
3) Justified
4) Reconciled
5) Freed
6) Rescued
7) made righteous
8) made perfect
9) forgiven
10) Sin burden (what God held against you) removed
11) Born anew
12) Regenerated
13) made alive
14) made holy and blameless
There are a great many verses that teach God puts us into Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30, Colossians 1:13 etc.
Answer this for yourself, how did we get to be "in Him." Were we baptized into Christ by one Spirit?
John 1:4, John 3:15, John 15:5, 1 Corinthians 1:5, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 5:21, and so forth and so on.
Another verse to consider is John 6:37. If being given to Christ by God does not mean to be put into Christ, then how did we get within Him because only then could He cast us back out?
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Actually neither verse is specific of God placing us in Christ. IMO it could just as easily be the Holy Spirit. I know there is only one God. I think we have to admit they all have something to do with our Salvation yet I can't help but believe that the Father has turned over all things to the Son. Colosians 1:13 is man being placed into the kingdom not Christ per KJV.1st Cor1:30 it is of God that we are in Christ not that He placed us there. KJV
MB
MB
It seems you are trying to figure how these verses could be said to not mean what they say. Yes, many verses indicate it is the Holy Spirit that sets chosen individuals apart in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit. But God in the Person of the Holy Spirit does put individuals into Christ.
Recall that you said you had not read where God puts individuals into Christ. How did you come up with the Holy Spirit performing the action?
So where do you think they were put, if not into Christ, which is where He reigns. No, the kingdom of Christ includes being spiritually in Christ. To argue they are not one and same place seems weak.
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Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
Barry Johnson
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Barry Johnson
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ok which out of these point s would you agree with or disagree?
Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)
Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)
Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)
When Christ said, “It is finished,” on the cross, everyone was still in their sins as per 1 Cor. 15:17.
Atonement is one component of many components in salvation. It alone is not what saves. (Tit. 3:5; Rom. 5:10)
Atonement is a prerequisite for salvation, not the execution of it. (Rom. 5, 8; 2 Cor. 5; Tit. 3:5).
The Atonement must be received. (Rom. 5:11, 17; Jn. 1:12; 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
The Atonement does not glorify anyone. (Rom. 8)
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." ( Romans 2:14-16 ).
" Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." ( Romans 13:1 ).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I disagree,
but know that I once believed as you appear to, my friend.
As an exercise in studying this out,
Please show the Scriptures that support this idea that all sins were paid for at the cross, Quantrill.
In addition, if everyone's sins were paid for at the cross,
then what works are sinful, unbelieving men going to be judged for when the books are opened ( Revelation 20:11-15 )?
Amen.
Colossians 2:13-14.
I see Scripture declaring that God's elect were declared righteous before they believed:
" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." ( Romans 5:8-11 ). <------ All of this is not only past and present tense, it is directed at one group. The same group that Paul is addressing in Romans 1:7.
"But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many." ( Romans 5:15 ) <----- It already has abounded towards many.
" For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." ( Romans 5:19 ). <---- Many were made righteous by the obedience of one... Jesus Christ. At the time of His obedience, the death of the cross ( see Philippians 2:8, Hebrews 5:8 ), many were then made righteous.
In other words, our belief on Jesus Christ as sons and daughters of God is not what God the Father waits for to apply His Son's perfect righteousness to us.
It was imputed to us at and after the cross...
" who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." ( Romans 4:25 ).
" knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." ( Galatians 2:16 ). <--- We as believers were justified at the cross by the faith of Christ.
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He is longsuffering not willing that any elect sheep perish
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
The ' our ' the ' we ' the us is not exclusive. No more than when Paul said " 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me .
We don't assume Jesus died only for Paul .
Rom 5
6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Who's not ungodly ? Are only the' elect 'Ungodly?
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
That any Jews should perish ? I agree .
(1 John 2:2)
All works of unbelieving man are sinful...even if they look 'good'.
Unbelieving man will be judged by his works as he rejects Jesus Christ. You don't want Christ, fine, God will judge you by your works.
Just because Christ paid for all, doesn't mean all want Him to pay it. They reject God, and Christ and would rather be found good according to their works.
Though their works find them wanting, it is their unbelief, their refusal of Christ, that moves them to this judgement.
At the Cross God imputed Adams sin to Christ. All was paid for in Christ. But it won't be until one becomes a believer that righteousness is imputed to the believer and he is declared righteous. See (Gen. 15:6). Note (Gen. 12:1-4). Abraham had been obedient to God in leaving Ur and going to the land promised. He believed. But he is not declared righteous at that point. Why? Because he believed and did. He believed and performed a work.
So...God waited till Abraham could do nothing but believe. (Gen. 15:6) No work could he do. No obedience could he perform. He must only believe. It is then God counted Him righteous and not before.
Our experience in this life has purpose. If we are declared righteous at the Cross, then no need of witnessing. And there is a need for witnessing...correct?
Quantrill
No I said the elect...jew or gentile;
UNless you understand this passage your posts are way off.
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called,
not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Elect gentiles, elect remnant of Jews+= the elect of God.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
The elect are always Jews , Jesus, Israel, purpose, service, calling . In time . It just so happens that the ' elect ' are saved also.
Barry Johnson
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Check the context every time you see ' election ' , Elect ect its in time .
You have no understanding on this whatsoever. There is no point to discussing with you unless you understand what this portion of Romans 9 is teaching.I just showed, [as others have] that God elects and calls jew and gentile as one new man. You ignore scripture, so no need to post to you until you take it seriously.
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