The problem of sin .

[Van]

I thought redemption happened at the cross?

No verse says that, it is a mistaken belief. Ransom happened at the cross, where the redemption price was paid, but only when individuals are placed in Christ are they redeemed.

 

[Van]

///Colossians 2:11
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;/// Yes this is something that happens after we believe.But that's not sin related thas the work of the Holy Spirit.

Not what it says.

 

[Van]

I don't think God is in christ reconciling the world to himself in the sense after we believe one by one ? Surely that is what happened on the cross " it is finished " . By not imputing their trespasses against them Everyone can freely come to Christ to BE reconciled in the sense of receiving him . Sin had to be dealt with first .

The ransom was paid, thus it is finished.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No verse says that, it is a mistaken belief. Ransom happened at the cross, where the redemption price was paid, but only when individuals are placed in Christ are they redeemed.

1 john 2 how do we reconcile these verses also then ? .2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 peter 2 .1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them , and bring upon themselves swift destruction

 

[Van]

Surely the reason we have the message ! of reconciliation is because its true that God has reconciled their sins by the death on the cross. Thats why its good news . We tell sinners, Jesus has ( past tense ) died for their sins , was buried and rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures. Surely were not telling sinners that Jesus hasn't died for their sins 2000 years ago on the cross ,unless they believe, then he really has died for your sins?

Again, nothing in scripture says that. To receive the reconciliation, we must be placed in Christ. Yes, we tell sinners, Christ has died for their sins, which is true, but inorder to receive that reconciliation, we must be placed into Christ. Remember, redemption is in Christ. Not outside of Christ.

 

[Van]

I'm not sure the term 'sin burden 'is helping ( could be my fault here not understanding)

I have explained it, so anyone could understand. Why does God send people to Hades? Because they do not abide in God's wrath? Of course not. They abide in God's wrath because they are not "in Christ."

 

[Van]

The verse literally says what God held against us" WAS dealt with at the cross . ' while we ( everyone without exception) were yet sinners christ died for us .
Eph 2 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Col 2
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

I have shown that it is impossible for your view to be reconciled with the passage. Only when we are "together with Him" are we redeemed.

 

[Van]

1 john 2 how do we reconcile these verses also then ? .2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 peter 2 .1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them , and bring upon themselves swift destruction

Christ = propitiation = means of appeasement. Not, has appeased God.
Yes, Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid the ransom for all mankind, those to be saved, and those never to be saved.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I have shown that it is impossible for your view to be reconciled with the passage. Only when we are "together with Him" are we redeemed.

When you say 'redeemed ' do you mean atoned for ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Christ = propitiation = means of appeasement. Not, has appeased God.
Yes, Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid the ransom for all mankind, those to be saved, and those never to be saved.

So it's kinda like 'future potentials '?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I have explained it, so anyone could understand. Why does God send people to Hades? Because they do not abide in God's wrath? Of course not. They abide in God's wrath because they are not "in Christ."

Could it be rather that people be sent to the bad place ( that was created for the devil and his angels because they won't be glorified without receiving Jesus?

 

[Van]

When you say 'redeemed ' do you mean atoned for ?

Sir, I have defined all my terms. Redeemed means placed in Christ by God.
The word "atonement" appears in the KJV, but the NASB translated the same word as reconciliation. See Romans 5:11 which says we have now received the reconciliation.

Some try to conflate two very separate actions by God.

1) Christ laying down His life as a ransom for all, as the Lamb of God, on the cross.

2) God placing an individual into Christ, which is their redemption.

 

[Van]

So it's kinda like 'future potentials '?

Christ paid the ransom or redemption price on the cross, but no one is redeemed until God places the individual into Christ.

What was accomplished on the cross?
Christ became the means of salvation for all humankind. Anyone and everyone God places into Christ is saved forever.
Two very different actions by God.

 

[Van]

Could it be rather that people be sent to the bad place ( that was created for the devil and his angels because they won't be glorified without receiving Jesus?

Why not address what I said. If you have been placed in Christ, you have been redeemed and your sin burden has been removed. If you are not "in Christ" you abide in God's wrath. John 3:36

 

[Wesley Briggman]

[Tit 3:9 KJV] 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe if you hold to Lordship salvation its sometimes hard to see what's wrong with it whilst your under it . Its sounds righteous and good . But its way off from understanding grace . It turns preaching biblical Grace into licence, liberty into antinominsim . Gal 3.3

Nonsense.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Christ paid the ransom or redemption price on the cross, but no one is redeemed until God places the individual into Christ.

What was accomplished on the cross?
Christ became the means of salvation for all humankind. Anyone and everyone God places into Christ is saved forever.
Two very different actions by God.

1¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
In what way were these false prophets bought?

 

[Barry Johnson]

No verse says that, it is a mistaken belief. Ransom happened at the cross, where the redemption price was paid, but only when individuals are placed in Christ are they redeemed.

Col 1 .20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
I'n what way did he make peace by the blood of his cross? and in what way did he reconcile all things to himself?

 

[MB]

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20¶Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him

As I read verse 19 I see ' past tense '
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself . Surely this points to the cross ? not imputing their trespasses unto them;
Rom 5 clarifies.

10For if,when we were enemies ( past tense ) , we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,( 2000 years ago ) much more, being reconciled,( when we believed) we shall be saved by his life. ( Glorification, because of his resurrection)

A men brother.
MB

 

[Van]

1¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
In what way were these false prophets bought?

I specifically addressed this verse?