The problem of sin .

[Iconoclast]

If righteousness came by the law ? then sure if you want to try that route . Good luck with that. Remember if you break one your guilty of them all . Which one of the laws if you kept would make you righteous? Or is it through faith we are Justified . By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified .

I have never said we become righteous by our law keeping.Could you post anywhere where I said that?

 

[Barry Johnson]

I have never said we become righteous by our law keeping.Could you post anywhere where I said that?

Then were on the same page there then ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Irelavent as the flood is before the cross .

No... it is quite relevant.
Even now after the cross many perish in the same condition as the world of the ungodly did

 

[Barry Johnson]

No... it is quite relevant.
Even now after the cross many perish in the same condition as the world of the ungodly did

Not exactly is it ? Not until the end will fire not water will be involved .

 

[Barry Johnson]

No... it is quite relevant.
Even now after the cross many perish in the same condition as the world of the ungodly did

People refuse to believe the truth so as to be saved. They will not be glorified. Glorification is the only difference.

 

[Iconoclast]

Lordship salvation has no clue what is the right motivation for leading Godly lives . Its grace not law .

Again Barry, you are perhaps parroting something you heard on a podcast, but Can you show anyone who denies grace is the basis of salvation.
I do not think you can articulate the Lordship teaching, or link to a person saying that it is works based

 

[Iconoclast]

Not exactly is it ? Not until the end will fire not water will be involved .

You are avoiding the real issue.
The World of the ungodly perished what law did they break that brought God's displeasure on them where he had to destroy them he didn't just destroy them for no reason?

 

[Iconoclast]

People refuse to believe the truth so as to be saved. They will not be glorified. Glorification is the only difference.

All men are truth suppressors and guilty that is why the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men all of Romans one teaches that period it is God's mercy alone that makes the difference.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Again Barry, you are perhaps parroting something you heard on a podcast, but Can you show anyone who denies grace is the basis of salvation.
I do not think you can articulate the Lordship teaching, or link to a person saying that it is works based

Its ' practically ' works based . ' practically ' is the important bit . So I say again ' practically ' its works Based .

 

[Barry Johnson]

You are avoiding the real issue.
The World of the ungodly perished what law did they break that brought God's displeasure on them where he had to destroy them he didn't just destroy them for no reason?

Why do you think he's not wiping out the earth right now ? think about it . Before and After the cross is key ..

 

[Barry Johnson]

All men are truth suppressors and guilty that is why the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men all of Romans one teaches that period it is God's mercy alone that makes the difference.

Notice what sin , not ' sins ' the Holy Spirit reproves the world of ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

All men are truth suppressors and guilty that is why the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men all of Romans one teaches that period it is God's mercy alone that makes the difference.

Rom 1
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie

Notice how unregenerated people hold the truth? And change the truth of God into a lie ?

 

[atpollard]

but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5.12

How do we reconcile theses passages with how God seems to have dealt with the law and sin ?

Context. (and just FYI you quoted Romans 5:13, not Romans 5:12)

[Rom 5:12-14 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

... There is a law that says "Thou shall not murder", which Cain violated. Yet God did not sentence Cain to death under the Law of Moses because violations of that Law were not imputed against those that sinned. However, Verses 12-14 clearly state that death, the PENALTY FOR SIN, was still held against all men because all men still sinned. All men sinned even without the imputed sin of their violation of the Law of Moses given to Israel.

Romans 1 makes clear that there is a LAW more fundamental than that given to the patriarchs that all men ... including those that have never heard of the patriarchs ... are held guilty of violating. The Law innate in existence that a creation is obligated to honor its creator. You do not NEED a law to tell you that you did not create yourself ... that is self-evident. So failure to honor who and what you are is a violation of your very reason for being. That requires no Law to bring condemnation, as John 3:18 says ... one stands already condemned because the creation has refused its purpose.

Do we need a Law to condemn SALT that refuses to be salty?
Do we need a Law that condemns a SUN that refuses to shine?

There have always only been two types of people ... those that fulfill the purpose for which man was created (to worship and obey God) and those that do not. Like Salt that is salty, one is fit for the purpose for which it was created, and like salt that has lost its saltiness, the other is worthless and fit for nothing except being discarded. That is all that matters as far as God, the Law and His people are concerned.

 

[Sai]

Rom 1
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie

Notice how unregenerated people hold the truth? And change the truth of God into a lie ?

Yes


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Van]

When were our sins paid for? Was it at the cross or the moment we believed?

Were all sins paid for ,or only our past sins ?

Sin is transgression of the law ,did Jesus take away the law at the cross ?

Did God pour out his wrath due to us ,on Jesus ?

Did we recieve Christ's righteousness when we believed

Which verses support these questions?.

Hopefully, not too much of the following is redundant, as I am responding only to the OP and not anything claimed later.

1) What verse says our sins (specific to our individual selves) were "paid" for? I do not think any verse says or suggests any such thing.

2) Christ paid the ransom required for all humankind to provide the opportunity for redemption for all humankind. (1 Timothy 2:6)

3) When God gives an individual to Christ, they are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, where they undergo the washing of regeneration which removes their sin burden, what God held against them. (John 6:37, Colossians 1:13, Titus 3:5)

4) Thus Christ made provision for the removal of our specific sins, past present and future, but an individual only has his or sin burden removed, if God places them into Christ. (Hebrews 7:27)

5) In summary, Christ died once for all , meaning for all the sins, past, present, and future, of all people, whether to be saved or never to be saved, but only those God places into Christ receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Sin is any thought or action that differs from the will of God for that individual. Thus if a person, who is not under the Law, and is totally ignorant of the Law, does something that is not the will of God for that individual, that is a sin, just not a sin like Adam's sin, who knew God's will and did otherwise. Romans 5:14

Again, I do not know which verse says God poured our His wrath for our sins, on Christ. Christ did rescue those placed into Him from God's wrath due them for their sins. Think of Christ as a propitiatory shelter, or wrath shield, those not in Christ abide with God's wrath upon them, those in Christ have no wrath upon them. John 3:36, 1 Thessalonians 1:10)

Not when we believed, but when God on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness, placed us individually into Christ, were we "made righteous" as a new creation. (Romans 5:19)

 

[Iconoclast]

Its ' practically ' works based . ' practically ' is the important bit . So I say again ' practically ' its works Based .

I know of no one who teaches a works based salvation who knows Jesus as Lord.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Hopefully, not too much of the following is redundant, as I am responding only to the OP and not anything claimed later.

1) What verse says our sins (specific to our individual selves) were "paid" for? I do not think any verse says or suggests any such thing.

2) Christ paid the ransom required for all humankind to provide the opportunity for redemption for all humankind. (1 Timothy 2:6)

3) When God gives an individual to Christ, they are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, where they undergo the washing of regeneration which removes their sin burden, what God held against them. (John 6:37, Colossians 1:13, Titus 3:5)

4) Thus Christ made provision for the removal of our specific sins, past present and future, but an individual only has his or sin burden removed, if God places them into Christ. (Hebrews 7:27)

5) In summary, Christ died once for all , meaning for all the sins, past, present, and future, of all people, whether to be saved or never to be saved, but only those God places into Christ receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Sin is any thought or action that differs from the will of God for that individual. Thus if a person, who is not under the Law, and is totally ignorant of the Law, does something that is not the will of God for that individual, that is a sin, just not a sin like Adam's sin, who knew God's will and did otherwise. Romans 5:14

Again, I do not know which verse says God poured our His wrath for our sins, on Christ. Christ did rescue those placed into Him from God's wrath due them for their sins. Think of Christ as a propitiatory shelter, or wrath shield, those not in Christ abide with God's wrath upon them, those in Christ have no wrath upon them. John 3:36, 1 Thessalonians 1:10)

Not when we believed, but when God on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness, placed us individually into Christ, were we "made righteous" as a new creation. (Romans 5:19)

When you say ///, where they undergo the washing of regeneration which removes their sin burden, what God held against them. /// Which verses say that regeneration removes the 'sin burden '? And how do we tie in 2 cor 5.19 which says ' not imputing their trespasses against them '

 

[Barry Johnson]

Hopefully, not too much of the following is redundant, as I am responding only to the OP and not anything claimed later.

1) What verse says our sins (specific to our individual selves) were "paid" for? I do not think any verse says or suggests any such thing.

2) Christ paid the ransom required for all humankind to provide the opportunity for redemption for all humankind. (1 Timothy 2:6)

3) When God gives an individual to Christ, they are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, where they undergo the washing of regeneration which removes their sin burden, what God held against them. (John 6:37, Colossians 1:13, Titus 3:5)

4) Thus Christ made provision for the removal of our specific sins, past present and future, but an individual only has his or sin burden removed, if God places them into Christ. (Hebrews 7:27)

5) In summary, Christ died once for all , meaning for all the sins, past, present, and future, of all people, whether to be saved or never to be saved, but only those God places into Christ receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Sin is any thought or action that differs from the will of God for that individual. Thus if a person, who is not under the Law, and is totally ignorant of the Law, does something that is not the will of God for that individual, that is a sin, just not a sin like Adam's sin, who knew God's will and did otherwise. Romans 5:14

Again, I do not know which verse says God poured our His wrath for our sins, on Christ. Christ did rescue those placed into Him from God's wrath due them for their sins. Think of Christ as a propitiatory shelter, or wrath shield, those not in Christ abide with God's wrath upon them, those in Christ have no wrath upon them. John 3:36, 1 Thessalonians 1:10)

Not when we believed, but when God on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness, placed us individually into Christ, were we "made righteous" as a new creation. (Romans 5:19)

Thank you ,will respond to each point. You gave good points there.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I know of no one who teaches a works based salvation who knows Jesus as Lord.

Thats why I'm careful to say ' practically ' or in practice.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Hopefully, not too much of the following is redundant, as I am responding only to the OP and not anything claimed later.

1) What verse says our sins (specific to our individual selves) were "paid" for? I do not think any verse says or suggests any such thing.

2) Christ paid the ransom required for all humankind to provide the opportunity for redemption for all humankind. (1 Timothy 2:6)

3) When God gives an individual to Christ, they are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, where they undergo the washing of regeneration which removes their sin burden, what God held against them. (John 6:37, Colossians 1:13, Titus 3:5)

4) Thus Christ made provision for the removal of our specific sins, past present and future, but an individual only has his or sin burden removed, if God places them into Christ. (Hebrews 7:27)

5) In summary, Christ died once for all , meaning for all the sins, past, present, and future, of all people, whether to be saved or never to be saved, but only those God places into Christ receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Sin is any thought or action that differs from the will of God for that individual. Thus if a person, who is not under the Law, and is totally ignorant of the Law, does something that is not the will of God for that individual, that is a sin, just not a sin like Adam's sin, who knew God's will and did otherwise. Romans 5:14

Again, I do not know which verse says God poured our His wrath for our sins, on Christ. Christ did rescue those placed into Him from God's wrath due them for their sins. Think of Christ as a propitiatory shelter, or wrath shield, those not in Christ abide with God's wrath upon them, those in Christ have no wrath upon them. John 3:36, 1 Thessalonians 1:10)

Not when we believed, but when God on the basis of crediting our faith as righteousness, placed us individually into Christ, were we "made righteous" as a new creation. (Romans 5:19)

would you agree that all those before the cross only had their sins remitted but not redeemed until after the death ,burial and resurrection? Then those sins were redeemed at the cross. Rom 3.25 . So when we believe we recieve remission and redemption at the same time. Because ALL sins had to be paid for or reconciled. Taking the law out of the way which was against ALL nailing it to the cross ? But to to be saved ( be predestined to glorification)is only made possible through receiving the atonement/ Jesus/ Holy Spirit .

 

[Iconoclast]

Thats why I'm careful to say ' practically ' or in practice.

Any truth can be abused by someone, especially in trying to live it out by a legal standard, rather than grace.That does not negate the truth of Jesus as Lord.