The Questionable Pretrib Rapture - Part 2

[npetreley]

The lesson for today is IGNORE AND EXTRAPOLATE

ignore and extrapolate - 1. to deny the plain meaning of scripture and instead rearrange scripture and add to it in order to estimate or infer the desired principle (for example, pre-trib rapture)
2. To arrive at (conclusions or results) by ignoring the obvious facts and hypothesizing consequences based on what remains

for a related principle, see evolution, where ignoring and extrapolating causes a hypothetical idea to be passed off as a "theory" and "science"

 

[Ed Edwards]

Show me a scripture that i've ignored.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Matt 25:31-46 do not mentioned, 'a thousand years'. Matt 25:3146 tells us, WHEN Christ comes with hs angels, he shall judge both goats and sheep in THAT DAY. All goats shall be cast into everlasting punishment at THAT DAY when Christ comes - Matt 25:31-33, & 46.

Ed,

You still not yet show me ONE verse saying gathering together shall be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before the second advent.

I am waiting on you.......


In Christ
Rev. 20:22 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

No, not by my opinion, Bible saying so.

We should suffer persecutes and tribulations according to John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 5:1-5, and more....

Bible never promise that we shall escape from tribulation.

[ September 29, 2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: DeafPosttrib ]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

The Bible does not teaching us there shall be five judgements. It teaces us, there shall be only ONE judgement day - Matt 25:31-46; Romans 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; and Rv. 20:11-15.

2 Tim. 4:1 - "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead (when??) AT his APPEARING and his kingdom."

Christ shall judge he world AT his coming - Matt 25:31-33.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Show me a scripture that i've ignored.

It's the plain meaning of scripture you ignore. For example, you rearrange the plain chronological order of events described in Matthew 24. If one lets the Bible interpret itself, one would conclude that the natural reading of Matthew 24 is correct, because the chronological order appears in Revelation and elsewhere. This is what it means to let the Bible interpret itself. But you abandon this reason. And on what basis do you abandon the natural meaning and rearrange the order? On your interpretation of how Jesus means the word "and", coupled with your a-priori assumption that pre-trib is true!

This is the same type of circular reasoning found in arguments for evolution, which is why I raised the comparison. You reason, "Pre-trib is true, therefore when Jesus says "and", he must be referring to the questions above in the order they were asked, and that means I must rearrange the order of events He describes later." That's no different than, "Evolution as I conceive it is true, therefore the fact that I found fossils in strata in the 'wrong' order doesn't tell me that my assumptions may be false, I must simply rearrange the plain evidence to fit the geologic column as I 'know' it to be true and find some *other* explanation as to why it doesn't fit my pre-conceived notions."

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: " ... on what basis do you abandon the natural meaning
and rearrange the order?"

First of all, "natural meaning" by your definition means
forced by preconception in mine (and vica versa, i'm sure

).

Second: I've give you several reasons for this none of which you
have logically disputed.

Still outstanding challanges:
1. Using Matthew 24:4-44, tell what the answer Jesus said to
the questions is the Disciples asked in Matthew 24:3

I've aleady told my answer

2. Why do many sentences in Matthew 24 start with "and"
while school teachers say this is improper English?

Npetreley: "It's the plain meaning of scripture you ignore."

Ah, i misunderstood your previous post. I'll go back
and study it.

Pray for me, i need to go see my doctor
(i can't talk, upper respritory stuff).
Thank you.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Matt 25:31-46 do not mentioned, 'a thousand years'. Matt 25:3146 tells us, WHEN Christ comes with hs angels, he shall judge both goats and sheep in THAT DAY. All goats shall be cast into everlasting punishment at THAT DAY when Christ comes - Matt 25:31-33, & 46.

Ed,

You still not yet show me ONE verse saying gathering together shall be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before the second advent.

I am waiting on you.......

Which part of "extrapolation"
do you not understand?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
The Bible does not teaching us there shall be five judgements. It teaces us, there shall be only ONE judgement day - Matt 25:31-46; Romans 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; and Rv. 20:11-15.

None of these verses, singally
or collectivly say there is ONE AND ONLY
one judgement. Do you want me to point
you to the 24-judgement page

Do you really think God cannot pull off
but ONE judgement? How about one judgement
for each person? There have been
some 36,500 Million people born on earth;
there will be some 36,500 judgements.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

You still not yet answer my question - where verse saying rapture will b occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before second advent. So, that means your beliefs of pretrib rapture is fallacy, and no fundamental docrine.

I am still waiting on you......

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
2. Why do many sentences in Matthew 24 start with "and" while school teachers say this is improper English?

I fail to see the relevance of this question. Are you suggesting Jesus went to a modern grammar school to learn and speak English and then went back in time to speak English to His disciples, who then translated it into Greek? Of course, Jesus would have to go to a school that isn't too modern, because it is perfectly acceptable to start a sentence with "and" these days. I do it all the time, and I'm a writer by trade.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
1. Using Matthew 24:4-44, tell what the answer Jesus said to the questions is the Disciples asked in Matthew 24:3

Here is the plain answer (bold, and text in [] brackets is mine).

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He [the Son of Man] will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they [the angels] will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that the plain order of events outlined in this passage. Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun and moon etc., then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven. You have the answer to the question, "what will be the sign of your coming?" It is not in verses 21-30 as you assert, but clearly stated in verse 30, which occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days.

You have somehow rearranged them based on a creative interpretation of the word "and". So allow me to address that view: Notice that I illustrated how "He" refers back to "Son of Man" and "they" refers back to "angels". You stated in the previous thread that "and" is a conjunctive that connects two separate events which you have rearranged to occur in an order OTHER than the order they appear in the text. This is an unnatural rendering of the text, because it requires that you abandon the chronology given and rearrange it according to your a-priori assumptions.

One could just as easily apply your creative use of the word "and" to separate the subjects of these statements and assert that "he" now refers to Harry Truman, and "they" refers to the New York Yankees. Any sane person would say that's silly, of course, because it is. The plain reading of the text tells you to whom "He" refers and to whom "they" refers. Just as the plain reading of the text tells you that these events are grouped together whenever there is an "and" and in chronological order whenever there is an "immediately after" or a "then".

By the way, verse 30 also starts with "kai", even though the word "and" is left out in the translation. But I doubt if any sane person would suggest that it is a rhetorical device and one must separate the "then" to mean some other time frame simply because the sentence begins with "and". The word "then" tells you that the events occur in a sequence. Jesus never gives you a reason to believe He has abandoned chronology at any point in His exposition, so there's no reason to believe one must later reverse the order of anything He said.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Pray for me, i need to go see my doctor
(i can't talk, upper respritory stuff).
Thank you.

I will do so, gladly.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

You say,

Do you want me to point you to the 24- judgement page

Sure! Go ahead!

You say,

There have been some 36,500 million born on earth

You mean 36,500 million already born since creation to now?

In fact, there are over 110 million born annually over the world every year.

You say,

there will be some 36,500 judgementS

Stop and think......

If suppose pretribulationim tehes that the judgement seat of Christ willtake place in the heaven for only 7 years during Tribulation period.

Let's figure out how many persons to have to be judge at the judgement seat of Christ during 7 year of Tribulation period.

Let's do math. Stat with the time of seconds, to see how manyseconds total for 7 years.

60 seconds x 60 minutes = 3600 seconds a hour.
3600 seconds x 24 hours = 86,400 seconds a day.
86,400 seconds x 365 days = 31,536,000 seconds a year.
31,536,000 seconds x 7 years = 220,752,000 seconds in 7 years total.

So, that means about 220 million of alive Christians being caught up , and God shall judge a person in every 1 to 2 seconds. When God done juge with all 220 million of alive Cristian. He realizes, not have enough time to set up Marriage Supper of the Lamb. So, all Chrstians would have to take sandwich in the snack bag with them, while ride on horses follow Christ come down to earth.

Does preribulationism teaching on the timing of the judgement seat of Christ - make a sense????

There are billions an billions of people have been born since creation to now and will be continue till Christ comes. The judgement shall take for a very long time to judge ALL people. You know better than that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

npetreley,

AMEN!

I agree with you!

Jesus explains on Matthew chapter 24 is so very simple and understand.

Ed,

You always often say on Matt 24:31 is a rapture. I agree with you. You have to be realize that many pretribbers in this forum might not agree with you on Matt 24:31. But, yo still always say Matt 24:31 is a PRETRIB rapture.

Does Jesus saying Matt 24:31 is a "pretrib" rapture??

None.

You have to read context start with Matt 24:29 thru 31 tell us, that Christ shall come again AFTER tribulation to gathering all elects together.

That is simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "You have to read context start with Matt 24:29 thru 31
tell us, that Christ shall come again AFTER tribulation to gathering
all elects together."

I win contextually.
My context is Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

There are three questions in Matthew 24:31:
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
What does Jesus say that answers that question?

2. What is the sign of His coming?
What does Jesus say that answers that question?

3. What is the sign of the End of the Age?
{We note here that the King James Version contains
an error. The Greek word "aeon" here translated
as "world" should be translated into English
as "age". If the Greek term had been "cosmos"
then "world" would be correct. The world does NOT
end at the Second Coming of Jesus (see Rev 20)}
What does Jesus say that answers that question?

DeafPosttrib: "That is simple and plain."
Does Jesus say that in Matthew 24 that His
answer will be simple and plain.
Of course not. You are extrapulating that the
Nature of God demands that His written word should
be simple and plain, but it does NOT say that in
Matthew chapter 24. You have extrapolated.

 

[Ed Edwards]

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 17 July 2002;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Yes, disciples asked three questions to Jesus - Matt 24:3.

How about Mark 13:4? They asked TWO questions to Jesus.

Are there conflict between Matt 24:3 and Mark 13:4?

The were not ask for TWO comings, they were asked for the signs of his coming at the end of the age.

We are in present age going within the signs of Matt 24:4-14, also, Matt 24:15-22 will be occur within this present age when the Antichrist revealed.

The age shall be end AT the coming of Christ.

Same with Matt 28:20 tells us, Jesus is with us TILL the end of the age. obivously, the Church must go through great tribulation first before Christ come to gathering us together.

Our gathering together shll not be occur till AFTER tribulation - Matt 24:29-31.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "We are in present age going within the signs of Matt 24:4-14,"

I agee

DeafPostrib: " ... Matt 24:15-22 will be occur within this
present age when the Antichrist revealed. "

I disagee on several points:

1. This refers to the last half of the Tribulation period
after the AOD = abomination of Desolation

2. The Tribulation Period is NOT in the present age

3. The antichrist will be revealed at the beginning
of the Tribulation period.

DeafPosttrib: "How about Mark 13:4? They asked TWO questions to Jesus.

Are there conflict between Matt 24:3 and Mark 13:4?"

No conflict. Mark 13:4 tells two of the questions asked,
Matthew 24:3 tells three. They could have asked four questions
and we would never know because the fourth question was not written
down.

DeafPosttrib: "Our gathering together shll not be occur
till AFTER tribulation - Matt 24:29-31."

As i said before Matthew 24:31 is seperated from the
Matthew 24:29-30. Read Matthew 24:30 some day.
""all the tribes of earth shall morn" -- that will happen
when Jesus comes after the tribulation. HELLO, anybody
awake here? When Jesus comes to get you (either in rapture
or resurrection) are you going to be morning? I'm going to
be all excited. When Jesus comes back in power and glory is
NOT the same time that Jesus comes to get us, His bride.
No, that coming of Jesus is before the Tribulation Period.

 

[Ed Edwards]

ed: ----------------------------------------------
There have been some 36,500 million born on earth
--------------------------------------------------

DeafPosttrib: "You mean 36,500 million already born since creation to now?"

That is exactly what i mean.
And 6,000 million of them still live today.

DeafPosttrib: "In fact, there are over 110 million born annually
over the world every year."

This is a correct statement, it would then take 328 years
to birth 36,000,000 Thousand person.
But recall up to about 1BC that the population of the
whole world was under 110 million. So thus in the
6,000 years since the creation of Adam, there have
been maybe 36,000,000,000 people born of which 6,000,000,000
still live.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

There are more than just 5 resurrections in the Bible.

Elijas the prophet raised young girl from the death.
Jesus raised Lazarcus from death.

I heard some believe on Matt 27:53 telling us, that the Old Testament saints raised from the eath by follow cross.

Possible.

I believe Lazarcus was with Abraham at Abraham's bosom, when Jesus died, he went down to Abraham's bosom, then delievery them out of it and bring them to heaven by souls. - Eph. 4:8-10

Yet, it have do NOTHING with the coming of Christ as gathering together us (rapture) because 12 disciples of Christ were still on earth while Jesus died.

The Bible teaches us there is only one resurrection of the saints.

While you discuss on 5 resurrections.

Why do you saying "Some date after 17 July 2002"?

What was happened on July 17 2002?

Later, you said,

"WHY: i don't know, God does"
"HOW: i don't know, God does"

That is your own logical. You use logical too much within your opinion.

Yes, Jesus is the firstfruit. Then, afteward, we are his firstfruit - 1 Cor. 15:23. then we shall be resurrection AT his coming - 1 Cor. 15:23.

Didn't you know that harvest is mentioned clear in Matt 13:39-42; Matt 25:31-33; 1 Thess 4:15-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Revelatio chapter 7(whole); and Rev. 14:14-20.

There are describes with details on the harvest in the Bible, yet, there is only ONE harvest at the end of the age.

The word, 'resurrection' does not appear in the book of Revelation TILL Rev. 20:4. Obivously, we as Christians will go throuh great triulation and face Antichrist first BEFORE resurrection occurs - Rev. 20:4.

All unbelievers shall be cast away AT Christ's coming - Matt 13:39-42; and Matt 25:31-33, & 46.

Thereshall be NO unbelivers remain left on earth AFTER the coming of Christ at the result of judgement day - Matt 25:31-46; & Rev. 20:11-15.

The resurrection of unbelievers shall be occur at same time as all believers shall be resurrection AT the LAST DAY - John 5:28-29 and John 6:39,40,44, & 54. That will be happen AT the coming of Christ at the end of the age, NOT suppose end of the "millennial kingdom".

The Bible teaches us there is only ONE future resurrecton at the last day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: " ... it is perfectly acceptable to start a sentence
with "and" these days. I do it all the time, and I'm a writer by trade."

And what does "and" mean in that context?
What the teacher was thinking of was the connective "and"
that is
1. the conjunction of two equal sets
(in other words, two names of the same set)
2. the conjunction of two similar sets
These are the most usual meanings of "and".
However, there is the polysyndeton "and".
The Greeks, not having nifty Microsoft software for
their Bible writing computers used the
polysyndeton "and" instead of "bullets".

The major outline of the answer of Jesus to the
questions of the disciples in Matthew 24:3 is:

1. the destruction of the temple:
Matthew 24:4-20
2. the sign of the Second Coming of Jesus:
Matthew 24:21-30
3. the sign of the end of the age
Matthew 24:31-44

This is the major outline.
Note that Matthew 24:21
and Matthew 24:31 both start with a
polysyndeton "and".

Obviously, if you construe any other major
division of Matthew 24:4-44, then you will get
different results. I used this division because
it gives the same outline of our future
as does my outline of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.
I used this division because it
gives the same outline of our future
as does the outline of Revelation.

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)