The Questionable Pretrib Rapture - Part 2

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "The Bible teaches us there is
only ONE future resurrecton at the last day. "

Book, Chapter and verse, please.

Didn't you see my extrapulation based on:
"The Lord God is a resurrecting God." Do ;you agree
or disagree? Isn't it the very nature of God to resurrect
human persons? Why do you lack faith and limit
God to one and only one resurrection?

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "Why do you saying "Some date after 17 July 2002"?

What was happened on July 17 2002?"

That was the last date i updated my writing.
Did you realise you keep asking the same quesitons
and i keep giving the same answers? I see no
reason to rewrite each time.

Here we go, I'll update it for you:

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 29 Sept 2003;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

You say,

This refers to the LAST HALF of the Tribulation period after the AOD

My question for you, HOWcan you prove Matt 24:15 saying it will be occur in the last half of 7 year tribulation period????

You say,

The Tribulation Period is NOT in the present age

Excuse me.... look in 1 Thess 3:3-4 saying, "That no man should be moved by these aflications: for yourseves know that we are APPOINTED THEREUNTO. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we SHOULD SUFFER TRIBULATION, even as it came to pass, and ye know."

1 Thess. 3:3-4 tell us that we are appointed for tribulation.


The end of the age shall NOT come till AFTER trbulation - Matt 24:29.

You say,

The Antichrist will be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulaion period

Partially correct. he correct is, Antichrist shall be revealed t the beginning of Great tribulation - Matt 24:21.

But 2 Thess 2:3 tells us the gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we shall see falling away(apostasy) first, and AntiChrist revealed.

Great Tribulation and Antichistwill be present on earth among us within this present age.

This presnt age shall be end at the coming of Christ - Matt 24:29.

You say on Mark 13:4 & Matt 24:3:

They could have asked four questions and we would never know because the fourth question was not written down.

That was your own logically.

There are no conflict between Matt 24:3 & Mark 13:4. Both are synchronize questions as they asked to Jesus.

Remember. the four gospels are synchronous. They written slightly different wat they head from witnesses, yet all are are same information.

They were not ask for two comings or two ages. they were aksed for the signs and his coming AT the end of the age. That's simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

ed: ---------------------------------------------------------------
This refers to the LAST HALF of the Tribulation period after the AOD
-------------------------------------------------------------------

DeafPosttrib: "My question for you, HOWcan you prove
Matt 24:15 saying it will be occur in the last half
of 7 year tribulation period????"

Daniel 9:27.
The AOD happens in the middle of the 70th week
of Daniel.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

I forget to add what you said.

You say,

As I said before Matthew 24:31 is SEPERATED from the Matthew 24:29-30.

You still not follow Hermenuetic rule - Intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY.

HOW do you know Mat 24:31 is "Pretrib" gathering together???? Where did you get word "pretrib" of Matt 24:31 come from?

You should be aware of most pretribbers might not agree with you on Matt 24:31 is pretrib rapture.

You mentioned on Matt 24:30 - "tribes". I am sur that in your mind, 'tribes' means Jews. Does Jesus was actaully saying it?

Thereis another refer verse of Matt 24:30 in Rev. 1:7 says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and ALL kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so. Amen."

Kindreds means nation, tribes. Rev. 1:7 dos not saying it is fo Jews only - limited. It tells us, that ALL people both Jews and Gentiles over the world shall see him, and all nations shall wail because of Messiah/Christ.

That is wha Matt 24:30 is talk about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dan. 9:27 say nothing about Antichrist. It talks about Jesus the Messiah, who already make covenant wih many (Mark 13:24) and he ended sacrifices and Old Testamnt economy - John 19:30.

 

[Ed Edwards]

What does "the people of the prince that shall come"
refer to?

I beleive this is the resolution of the first "he" in
Daniel 9:27.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

You ask me,

Book, Chapter, and verse, please

Sure. In John 5:27-28, John 6:39,40,44, & 54 tell us, that Christians shall be resurrection on the LAST DAY at the end of the age follow te coming of Christ.

It does not saying resurrection/rapture will be occur 2555 days EARLIER BEFORE the last day. It simple saying it will be occur ON the LAST DAY

Cannot you understand what is 'last day' mean?

Rev. 20:4 tell us very clear that th resurrection cannot be occur till AFTER Christians face Antchrist first.

Of course, God is an omnipotnent. He can do everything in his power.

You say to me,

Why do you lack faith and limit God to one and only one resurrection?

You seem insult my spiritual as judging. You cannot read in my heart. I do no saying that I have lack of faith on God. Neiher, I can read in your heart. Only God can read our hearts.

God could come down and risen all dead believers from the grave now if he wants to. But, that is Gods plan, not our thought of his plan. He knows eveything in his own plan.

You given the outline of Matthew chapter 24, you say:

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:21-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

You really twist what Jesus was actually saying.

No, that's not correct. You put in the wrong order of the chronological.

Jesus telling us, that tribulaion must come to pass first before resurrection/rature occurs - Matt 24:29-31.

Why cannot you accept the clear fact what Jesus tells us, He will not come till after tribulation according to Matthew chapter 24???

You seems wrestling or struggle with Mat 24:29. I know that many pretribbers dislike what Jesus saying according to Matt 24:29-31. They won't admit it. I know that you won't admit that you struggle with Matt 24:29. I can't read your heart. Only God knows your heart and mind.

You HAVE TO accept what Jesus saying according to Matt 24:29-31! I can't force you. You have to choice what you really believe in your own belief and own intepreing.

I choice follow God's Word and Jesus' word what these saying than follow men's teaching - Colossians 2:8 & 2 Thess 2:15 too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

you say,

it would then take 328 years to birth 36,000,0000 Thousand person

So.......... do you think 36,000,000,000 persons could be judge at the judgement seat of Christ SQUEEZE into limited only 7 years??????

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

You are getting your judgements mixed up.
The general judgement of the unjust
takes place after the Millinnium.
Oh, i forget, you don't beleive in the
physicial millinnia Kingdom of Christ.
Oh well, if you miss one part, it is hard
to get any of the rest correct.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

I will continue to debate with you. I have to go to work - 3rd shift job tonight. I will raply back to you tomorrow.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

btw, I strongly believe Jesus will come again and to reign on earth in phsycally forever and ever! AMEN!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
And what does "and" mean in that context?

The same thing "and" means in other contexts. It's a conjunction.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The Greeks, not having nifty Microsoft software for their Bible writing computers used the polysyndeton "and" instead of "bullets".

A polysyndeton is simply the frequent use of "and" in order to pace the text. In the case of starting sentences with "and", it prevents run-on sentences. In the case of the frequent use of "and" within a sentence, it paces the run-on sentence. Regardless, it doesn't change the meaning of "and".

Here's an example from http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Figures/P/polysyndeton.htm

I said, "Who killed him?" and he said, "I don't know who killed him but he's dead all right," and it was dark and there was water standing in the street and no lights and windows broke and boats all up in the town and trees blown down and everything all blown and I got a skiff and went out and found my boat where I had her inside Mango Key and she was all right only she was full of water.
-Ernest Hemingway, "After the Storm."

The above example of polysyndeton shows that the events are still grouped, and sequential.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The major outline of the answer of Jesus to the questions of the disciples in Matthew 24:3 is:

1. the destruction of the temple:
Matthew 24:4-20
2. the sign of the Second Coming of Jesus:
Matthew 24:21-30
3. the sign of the end of the age
Matthew 24:31-44

This is the major outline.
Note that Matthew 24:21
and Matthew 24:31 both start with a
polysyndeton "and".

So here's what you have to choose from. Jesus is using not only the polysyndeton "and", but is using it in exactly the way you have defined it (a very narrow definition of being a bullet point), and Jesus is doing so to match the questions of the disciples exactly -- bullet by bullet using YOUR narrow definition of the polysyndeton "and".

OR you can assume Jesus is simply pacing His answer, and then read the fact that Jesus specifically tells you the sign of His coming, and He does it in verse 30.

Given a choice between your stretched and contrived interpretation which is by no means necessarily true -- and the open, obvious way Jesus says "this is the sign of the Son of Man", I'll take the latter, thank you very much.

What's worse is that you've concluded that Jesus is using your specific version of the polysyndeton "and" because you think you have to group the sequence of answers according to the questions asked by the disciples! Don't you see that this places the authority with the disciples and not with Jesus? The answers Jesus gives may be in the same consecutive order (I happen to believe they are), but you are applying that to the text as if it's a rule, which is extremely poor judgment in interpretation, IMO. Who's the authority here, the disciples or Jesus?

Let me put it this way: You may ask out of ignorance, "When is dinner, when is lunch, and when do we go to bed?" Now, you happened to get the order wrong in your question. Does that mean I am obliged to follow your wrong order in my answer? Of course not!

So when I answer, "I'm going to get McDonald's for the meal in the middle of the day, cook spaghetti in the evening, and then you'll go to bed", it would be a huge error for you to "reorder" my answer to fit your questions. Yet that's exactly how you're interpreting the answers Jesus gave -- you are assigning the "ands" a certain meaning in order to split up the answers to fit the questions, as if the questions are the authoritative guide in understanding the answers.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: "you are assigning the "ands" a certain meaning in order
to split up the answers to fit the questions, as if the
questions are the authoritative guide in understanding the answers"

I agree, that is what i did.
I did it under the guidance of
the Holy Spirit. I was pretrib
probably 48 years before i saw the
Matthew 24:31 pretribulation rapture.
I thought Matthew 24:31 was
just the postribulation rapture.
Yes, i do beleive in a postribulation
rapture/resurrection, i just am
not limited by the postrib only viewpoint.

John 16:13 (nKJV):

However, when He, the Spirit of truth,
has come, He will guide you into all truth;
for He will not speak on His own authority,
but whatever He hears He will speak;
and He will tell you things to come.

If you come up with a different meaning of Matthew 24:3,
fine. But you have mine.

I sure find my argument better than Posties (not present)
who plan to go to the mountains when the AC commits the AOD.

Matthew 24:16 (KJV1769):
Then let them which be in Judea flee
unto the mountains:

Several problems:
1. The mountains the US were booked up through 2005
over the Y2K problem
2. England is NOT Judea nor is North America
3. The population that the Mountains of the
earth can naturally support is under 5 million.
In fact, without modern aguculature methods the whole
earth can only support a max of about 50 million.
Hello Reality! Who ever controls the money
controls the food.
4. The AC will be killing off Christians right
and left before the AOD. Yes, the tribulation period
starts 3½-years before the AOD.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I agree, that is what i did. I did it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I refuted your methodology and conclusion under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. One (or both) of us is obviously wrong about where we got our guidance in this case, and neither of us can "prove" our source. But I think we can agree that we'll both find out sooner or later.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by npetreley:
One (or both) of us is obviously wrong about where we got our guidance in this case, and neither of us can "prove" our source.

I disagree.
We could both be right.
Obviously neither one of us
understands the Holy Spirit's plan here

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I disagree.
We could both be right.
Obviously neither one of us
understands the Holy Spirit's plan here

I'd love to agree with you here, but I can't. In principle, it makes no sense that the Holy Spirit would teach two people contradictory interpretations. Alternate interpretations, maybe, but not contradictory. In addition, "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."

 

[Ed Edwards]

Bro. npetreley, which of the following
is nearest to your belief?
I like A.
Brother DeafPostrib likes C.

A. Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

B. Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

C. Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as:
2. Tribulation time - is the same as:
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "There are more than just 5 resurrections in the Bible."

We all know that.
I selected these five because they "fit" into the
evangelic message that was the purpose of the post.
I said IN THE MESSAGE:
"NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation."

I know there are more than five resurrecitons mentioned
in the Bible.

DeafPosttrib: "You use logical too much within your opinion."

Thank you, Brother DeafPosttrib for the compliment.
I note no one can say the same for you.

 

[npetreley]

Ed, I wouldn't align myself with any of those choices. Here's what the Bible describes most plainly:

1. When the abomination of desolation occurs, the man of sin is revealed
2. There is great tribulation
3. The great tribulation is cut short...
4. ...immediately after which the celestial signs appear (sun, moon goes dark, etc.) and the Day of the Lord begins, the 144,000 are sealed for protection, the rapture occurs
5. God's wrath is poured out upon the world
6. The millenium
7. New heaven, new earth

If you want to try to match that up with your choices, that's fine, but I fundamentally disagree with things like defining a church age, equating God's wrath with tribulation, etc., so I can't align it for you.

 

[npetreley]

By the way, an important distinction may have eluded you. Jesus ends the great tribulation with His return, raptures the saints (to remove them from wrath) and seals the 144,000 (to protect them from wrath), after which He pours out His wrath upon the world.

Why is this distinction important? Because if the great tribulation were equal to God's wrath, it would make no sense for...

1. Jesus to put a stop to the great tribulation "wrath" by returning, only to pour out even MORE wrath after He returns
2. Jesus to leave His church here during the great tribulation "wrath" and then remove it for the "Day of the Lord" wrath
3. Jesus to leave the 144,000 to suffer the great tribulation "wrath" only to protect them from the "Day of the Lord" wrath