The Questionable Pretrib Rapture - Part 2

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Ed, I wouldn't align myself with any of those choices. Here's what the Bible describes most plainly:

1. When the abomination of desolation occurs, the man of sin is revealed
2. There is great tribulation
3. The great tribulation is cut short...
4. ...immediately after which the celestial signs appear (sun, moon goes dark, etc.) and the Day of the Lord begins, the 144,000 are sealed for protection, the rapture occurs
5. God's wrath is poured out upon the world
6. The millenium
7. New heaven, new earth

If you want to try to match that up with your choices, that's fine, but I fundamentally disagree with things like defining a church age, equating God's wrath with tribulation, etc., so I can't align it for you.

Sounds like a futuristic, non-dispensational, pre-millinnial, pre-wrath position to me.

Like me, you probably developed that postion
on your own, without haveing it spoon fed
from somebody else.

God bless.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV1769)

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,
If any man worship the beast and his image,
and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup
of his indignation; and he shall
be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels,
and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth
up for ever and ever: and they have no
rest day nor night, who worship
the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth
the mark of his name

This is a flash forward to the end of the Tribulation Period
when God pours out His undiluted wrath.

Tribulation Period (7years, especially the
first half) -- Wrath Lite
Great Tribulation Period (last 3½-years) -- Wrath heavy
After the Tribulation Period, when Jesus
comes in power and glory to defeat the
Antichrist and set up the physical Millennial Kingdom,
the undiluted wrath of God will be poured out upon
those who take the mark and who give the mark.

Npetrely: //Why is this distinction important?
Because if the great tribulation were equal to God's wrath,
it would make no sense for...

1. Jesus to put a stop to the great tribulation "wrath" by returning,
only to pour out even MORE wrath after He returns
2. Jesus to leave His church here during the great tribulation
"wrath" and then remove it for the "Day of the Lord" wrath
3. Jesus to leave the 144,000 to suffer the great tribulation
"wrath" only to protect them from the "Day of the Lord" wrath //

What makes no sense is that you assume the "wrath of God"
to have no comment elemnts with the tribulation of mankind.
Recall incorrect assumptions render the conclusions invalid.

1. it makes sense to me to end heavy tribulation on
the unjust and then follow it with undiluted tribulation

2. You are right, this makes not sense, not for your
reason, but because God took the church age born-again
elect saints out of the world before the Tribulation Lite
even started.

3. You got the 144,000 all wrong. These are
church age born-again elect saints selected
after the pretribulation rapture for special service
ON THE EARTH for Jesus.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Sounds like a futuristic, non-dispensational, pre-millinnial, pre-wrath position to me.

That's funny, I thought I was a post-traumatic pre-menopausal mid-life-crisis a-millipedal pro-creation anti-disestablishmentarianist.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Like me, you probably developed that postion
on your own, without haveing it spoon fed
from somebody else.

Exactly. I was spoon-fed pre-trib, and I believed it for several years. But several problems with it bugged me, and I was almost obsessed with trying to figure out what I was missing. After much prayer, reading, etc., I arrived at the pre-wrath position, and everything fell into place for me perfectly. I have yet to find a verse or passage that contradicts or poses a problem for pre-wrath.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
God bless.

The very same to you, Ed. You're a true brother in Christ.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: "I have yet to find a verse or passage
that contradicts or poses a problem for pre-wrath."

I can't tell the difference between your pre-wrath
and most pre-mill posttrib positions.
I do believe in a postrib rapture/resurreciton
(before the undiluted wrath of God is poored out).
It is just i also believe the scripture teaches
a pretribulation raputre/resurrection/gathering/transformation.

ed: -----------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Sounds like a futuristic, non-dispensational,
pre-millinnial, pre-wrath position to me.
---------------------------------------------

Npetreley: "That's funny, I thought I was a post-traumatic
pre-menopausal mid-life-crisis a-millipedal
pro-creation anti-disestablishmentarianist."

Yes, that also

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV1769) [...]

This is a flash forward to the end of the Tribulation Period
when God pours out His undiluted wrath.

I would say that this passage describes what takes place during the great tribulation, and it's a flash forward to when God pours out his undiluted wrath. So we may agree, depending on when you think the mark of the beast is an issue.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Tribulation Period (7years, especially the
first half) -- Wrath Lite

We disagree on this. There is no such thing as the tribulation period.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Great Tribulation Period (last 3½-years) -- Wrath heavy

We also disagree on this. More about this later...

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
What makes no sense is that you assume the "wrath of God"
to have no comment elemnts with the tribulation of mankind.

No, I do not assume that. I know that God is always the root cause of all tribulation (because God is the root cause of ALL things), and the primary cause of tribulation in some circumstances. But the great tribulation does not fit the Biblical model of God's wrath. It is also never referred to as wrath. It is always referred to as a time of trial and trouble. In sharp contrast, the Day of the Lord is always associated with God's wrath, both in the old testament and the new. And the Day of the Lord is easy to pinpoint in time as occurring immediately after the great tribulation.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
1. it makes sense to me to end heavy tribulation on
the unjust and then follow it with undiluted tribulation

It doesn't matter what makes sense to you. What matters is what the Bible says, and it says the Day of the Lord's wrath immediately follows the great tribulation. The Bible makes the distinction between wrath and tribulation, not me. In addition, the Bible says the great tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, and it says that immediately after it is cut short Jesus returns and the Day of the Lord begins.

Matthew 24:22
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
2. You are right, this makes not sense, not for your
reason, but because God took the church age born-again
elect saints out of the world before the Tribulation Lite
even started.

We disagree. See above. The Bible gives no indication that the "elect" to which Jesus refers are those saved during the great tribulation, so I assume the elect are the elect.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
3. You got the 144,000 all wrong. These are
church age born-again elect saints selected
after the pretribulation rapture for special service
ON THE EARTH for Jesus.

You are disregarding the plain text once again. It not only says specifically "One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed", it even names the 12 tribes of Israel selected. And note also that they don't even match the 12 tribes as you would expect them. (Did you notice my use of polysyndeton "and"? grin) This may be due to scribal error, but that's unlikely. Some have speculated it has to do with the tribe of Dan disqualifying themselves for various reasons (idolatry being one). Regardless, I can see where the number 144,000 might be symbolic, but the level of detail about things like existing tribes of Israel is not likely to be symbolic.

 

[Ed Edwards]

ed: ----------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
3. You got the 144,000 all wrong. These are
church age born-again elect saints selected
after the pretribulation rapture for special service
ON THE EARTH for Jesus.
----------------------------------------------------

npetreley: "You are disregarding the plain text once again."

I rephrase:
3. You got the 144,000 all wrong. These are
Israeli souls that were Messanic Jews and were
gentile age (church age) born-again elect saints selected
after the pretribulation rapture for special service
ON THE EARTH for Jesus.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I rephrase:
3. You got the 144,000 all wrong. These are
Israeli souls that were Messanic Jews and were
gentile age (church age) born-again elect saints selected
after the pretribulation rapture for special service
ON THE EARTH for Jesus.

Okay, we agree that they're Jews, and we agree they're saved (which makes them Messianic Jews). The Bible doesn't say whether or not they're selected for special service, though. What it does say is this...

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed

We know it is a seal of protection because...

Revelation 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Npetreley: "The Bible doesn't say whether or not
they're selected for special service, though."

Revelation 14:4 (nKJV):
These are the ones who were not defiled with women,
for they are virgins.
These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
These were redeemed from among men,
being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Following the Lamb wherever He goes sounds
like "special service" to me.

"Firstfruits? Like before the Tribulation Period?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Following the Lamb wherever He goes sounds
like "special service" to me.

That's a stretch. All believers follow the Lord, and are therefore all part of a "special service" if that's what you mean.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
"Firstfruits? Like before the Tribulation Period?

I would say before the millenium, since the great tribulation is over before they're sealed.

 

[eschatologist]

Ed Edwards,
Preterists Do believe in two comings: 1)The first coming, as you described-- as a babe in a manger to die on the cross; 2)The second coming, in the clouds as He said He would. A coming in which He and His apostles said was near, soon, and in that generation.

 

[eschatologist]

It is almost shocking regarding the gross misunderstanding concerning Isaiah's prophesy in Is.13:9! First of all this has nothing to do with a 21st century tribulation and rapture. What it does have to do with is the overthrow of Babylon(Is.13:1,19:14:3,22) by the Medes(Is.13:17) and was spoken of by Isaiah as being near(Is.13:6). From Isaiah chapter 13 to chapter 24 is a series of nations that are to be overthrown by the Medo-Perian armies. This in fact DID happen, ALREADY!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by eschatologist:
It is almost shocking regarding the gross misunderstanding concerning Isaiah's prophesy in Is.13:9! First of all this has nothing to do with a 21st century tribulation and rapture. What it does have to do with is the overthrow of Babylon(Is.13:1,19:14:3,22) by the Medes(Is.13:17) and was spoken of by Isaiah as being near(Is.13:6). From Isaiah chapter 13 to chapter 24 is a series of nations that are to be overthrown by the Medo-Perian armies. This in fact DID happen, ALREADY!

Sounds like a dual fulfillment prophecy to me

 

[eschatologist]

And by what do you base this on!!! Let's go ahead and make it a Tri-fulfillment then-- when the Earth defeats the Martians in 10,000 AD. There is absolutely no scripture to support this. And further more it waters down God's punishment against apostate Jerusalem and Judah. It is nothing other than flawed theology. If this is how we can remove all bounderies in interpreting God's word then the skies the limit. Your reasoning for explaining why Catholic doctrine or any others gets tossed right out the window, for their defense is-- sounds like dual meaning to me.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Interesting way to kill a thread

I'm going to fire this up, i don't see
any reason to discuss the pretribulation
rapture over in the Fundamental Baptist
Forum.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Danrusdad: "Do you think this proves your case?"

In the early 1970s, I was licensed to teach logic in
the public schools of Oklahoma.
I know you could care less about my credintials. I would like
you to know though, FOR THIS ONE TENNY TINY point
of one small argument of one insignificant
doctrine -- I recognize what "proves your case" means.

No. Listing verses does not PROVE arguments.
However, please, please don't ask me to "prove it"
and then run off after the fisrt post. I will not
be able to prove it in one post, I won't even be able to
prove it in one topic. As you can see, i've already jumpped
from forum to fourm.

(I'm also discussing eschatology down in this ALL CHRISA

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/2675/14.html

And I already know you better than to think, like some others,
when i get close to WINNING

the argument you will
cry TOO COMPLEX, TOO COMPLEX.

BTW, i taught the pretribulation raputre/resurrection
or 3 or 4 years in Rapture Ready (the member's only part)
l;ike 1999-2003. I got kicked out of RR not for my
eschatology but on another matter (see also Exodus 1:8).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Tim too:
Finally, which position would be most to Satan's advantage? If the rapture is true then there is no damage done by believing otherwise. If you are a Christian you are still going to be raptured. However if the rapture is not true there is real danger. Believers are not going to be looking the antichrist or the mark. They could be deceived into taking the mark. Those who take the mark are under the same judgment as unbelievers.

Your eighth reason,
like the first seven, are invalid.
There is no reason for us to consider if or not
Satan would be helped or hindered by the
clear plan of God. The 7-year Tribulation
Period Wrath Judgements are the plan of God
to save a maximum number of physical Jewish
Israeli persons. This happens after Jesus
gets the mostly gentile church age folk out
of this world.

Personally i'm going to try to avoid critiquing
God's plan.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed about Isaiah 13:9: "Sounds like a dual fulfillment
prophecy to me

"

eschatologist: "And by what do you base this on!!!"

The smilie has "irony" written all over it.

 

[danrusdad]

Ed,

My point-by-point response to your Rapture only/Second coming only passages is in the "Imminent..." thread. I look forward to your point by point response (for once).

You still have a lot of work to do...

 

[Ed Edwards]

Danrusdad: "Jude 1:21 This passage makes no mention of either."

Jude 1:21 (HCSB):

keep yourselves in the love of God, expecting the mercy
of our Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life.

I believe "expecting the mercy" means i lean more
toward the pretribulation rapture theory
than the rape of the bride theory.

 

[Trotter]

Ed wrote:
I believe "expecting the mercy" means i lean more toward the pretribulation rapture theory than the rape of the bride theory.

Well, Ed, that is definately one way to put it.

And, yes, I still agree with you.

In Christ,
Trotter