The Rapture when is it?

Thanks for your polite reply, Darrell.

The clincher is in Jesus words, "and to stand before the son of man" the very next thing that is said after 'escape', which is exactly what we will do when we see Jesus in the air. There is no sense in making it more complicated than it really is.

The vs from Revelation 3:10 was given by Jesus to the sixth church out of the seven churches in Asia Minor. Do you think that our Lord meant those words for ONLY that local (Philadelphia) church? No, because if that promise were just for them, then it never happened and the promise he gave to them was useless. Not only so but HE made it clear that the hour of temptation would involve the whole world, a la Luke 21:35-36. If the church age theory is right then that sixth church stands for the sixth age church in the age of grace (our time) and the saints of this period will be spared the wrath to come. The Laodicean church (seventh) will be the ecumenical church that will become the one world church of Antichrist and it will NOT escape. I hope this makes sense.

Stay in there, young fella. You're doing a good job.

 

They are the same.

• John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
• John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
• John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
• John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
• 
  
• John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

The same is the day of Judgement.

• John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

Really? See Romans 5:3

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
2 Corr 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2 Corr 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
1 Thess 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
2 Thess 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 

I am not trying to answer for DarrellC, but you quoted Rev. 2:10, "ye shall have tribulation ten days". That ten days John mentions is equal (symbolically and typically) to the ten days from the feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hoshana) to the Feast of Atonement (Yom Kippur) which, for the Jews lasts ten days. The type and analogy that we find in Leviticus 23 depicts Christ's death, the feast of the Passover (1st feast), burial (2nd feast), resurrection (3rd feast), Pentecost (4th feast) ------feast of Trumpets (5th ,..the rapture), feast of Atonement (6th --Jesus returns to earth -- Israel saved!) and the feast of Tabernacles (7th, --- millenium). The day of the Lord BEGINS on the day of the rapture & appearance of Antichrist and concludes on the day of the 2nd coming. It is equal to the 'time of Jacob's trouble' and will last seven years.

No other scenario can match the clear-cut typology of Leviticus 23.

The tribulation you quoted about extensively is the common experience of true Christians in every age but the Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of is particular and will occur during those last seven years.

Best wishes.

 

As I said, I can see how one might see it as a Rapture statement, but escaping is something that, in my view, has no real significance to the Church, as we go through tribulation anyway, though not the Tribulation.

Here is escape in a context I suggest deals with the Day of the Lord:


1 Thessalonians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The promises to the Churches hinge on one thing, they they overcome, which I view as synonymous with being saved.

Those who have been saved will not endure the time of trieal to come upon the entire earth (the Tribulation).

Correct.

Progressive Dispensationalists teach a local Tribulation involving only those countries named in Scripture, but we agree, this speaks of the Tribulation as global.

I'm not a huge fan of imposing things into Scripture, so on this "theory" I take a neutral position. Maybe they do represent church ages, maybe they con't. We have enough that we can be dogmatic about to build our Eschatology on, and if that which is questionable isn't necessary to the Eschatology of Scripture, then I leave it in that category of "I cannot be dogmatic."

Correct, they will not escape the judgment imposed on the earth.

God bless.

 

No, they are not the same, lol.

The Rapture is taught as a resurrection of the Church as a whole, meaning both those who are dead as well as those who are alive.

As I have said, if we keep Prophecy intact without spiritualizing the distinct events told us, then we must see the promise of God to Israel fulfilled, which means that all of the passages denoting a physical Kingdom which Christ rules...

...is still on the agenda.

These passages look towards the ultimate fulfillment given us in Revelation 20, where the foundational teaching of resurrection in the Hebrew Scriptures will be fulfilled, and we will see all men raised from the dead to stand before God in judgment. In my view this implies that those who are born again but die in the Millennial Kingdom may not be raised until the Great White Throne judgment, but, I have not come to a dogmatic position on that yet.

The Old Testament (foundational) teaching concerning the Day of the Lord correlates to the Return of Christ, where we see the earth judged.

This...


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


...and...


2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


...both speak of the Day of the Lord, and in view in the latter quote is not that the gathering of the Church will take place after Antichrist is revealed, what he is telling them is...

...don't confuse the two events.

He says "You should know the Rapture has not occurred because you have not seen the Antichrist revealed. How can the Rapture have occurred if that hasn't happened?"

The "Day" in view is the Return of Christ, which he speaks about in Chapter 1.

And it is not relevant to the Rapture.

It is relevant to the Great White Throne Judgment, which is the last day of last days.


God bless.

 

Really.

You have ignored the context of every proof text you have given. If you go back and consult the context you will see that most of these are unrelated to THe Tribulation, and speak of the tribulation we go through in the physical realm.

But you ignore the rest of the epistle, David. This does not nullify his teaching that we are not designated to undergo the wrath of God in the Day of the Lord:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


How can Paul teach both comfort in the Rapture and...that we will go through the Great Tribulation?

The tribulation in view has already taken place in their lives before, so unless we want to suggest multiple Tribulations (and Scripture teaches only one), then we see this as a context dealing with our daily conversation.

Again, all dealing with tribulation we undergo in the body, not The Tribulation prophesied to take place.

Sorry for rushing these David, I only had about 30 minutes to deal with 7 responses, lol.

Hope you and all here have a blessed day in the Lord.


God bless.

 

Very good reply. Darrell.

I said:
The Laodicean church (seventh) will be the ecumenical church that will become the one world church of Antichrist and it will NOT escape. I hope this makes sense.

You said;
Correct, they will not escape the judgment imposed on the earth.

It seems that we agree that the letters that Christ wrote through John to those 7 churches in Asia minor do indeed involve more than just the membership of those local churches. So if (if, if, if...) the Loadicean church depicts the last and apostate church that will join with and support antichrist it therefore follows that the faithful (sixth) church of Philadelphia will be the faithful remnant that will be raptured at the coming of Christ for His bride.

Best wishes.

 

Thanks brother, you whole post was well articulated and informative. My response is below to your quoted question:

I Thess 4:14-18; Matt 24:38-44 are a couple if that is the question? As to when, the times and seasons seem extremely close but the day and hour will be unknown to all. The world will be rejoicing in peace and safety, by enlarge the world's business will be as usual, believers will be mingled among unbelievers and caught away unaware. Then sudden destruction will come upon the unregenerate, seemingly over night post catching away.



.

 

I don't agree with you but best wishes to you also,

 

Well as you may know, I disagree with you completely. The GT in Olivet was on the Jews and that in Revelation is on Christian believers.

• Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Who have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, but the Christian Martyrs through the centuries, not lust 3½ or 7 years whichever you believe?

The book of Revelation was written to the churches and concerns the churches .

• Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne

I

 

Well, O.K., brother, but when you are taken up at the rapture....the pre-tribulation rapture of the saints in that wonderful day to come you will be exceedingly glad and rejoice with the rest of us. There will be no difference of opinion then. The truth is that you are robbing yourself of the great joy, anticipation, and comfort God has offered to us all who believe in the incredible moment that will happen 'in the twinkling of an eye'...........something that has never happened in history past.

P.S. You 'answered' Darrell quite a few times but you did not answer some of the very pointed things I laid before you, i.e. Christ sitting on the throne of David prophecy...fulfilled in the future, not the past.

 

Present.

The saints will be raised on the last day. The judgement will also be on the last day, so how can you fit a tribulation in there?

 

I have recently finished a brief study on this subject and pray it will encourage.

I believe there will be two Judgments and these Judgments are tied directly to the two different resurrections God speaks of:

The resurrection of the just occurs at the catching away of the church. There is a separate resurrection of the just from the unjust. John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Luke 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Acts 24:15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust (this speaks of separate resurrections as other Scripture references discuss)

The Judgment seat of Christ begins at the rapture with the church saints and continues through the Great Tribulation with the tribulation saints. As more are martyred during the tribulation, they are judged for their works on earth during the tribulation.

The Great White Throne Judgment of the lost occurs after the 1000 year reign of Christ and is the second resurrection (as I note and bolded below). In order to rule and reign with Christ, we must be part of the first resurrection that occurs at all points of the tribulation beginning at the rapture of the church else what capacity would our ruling positions be determined by?:

Rev 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them (indicating judging is taking place during the tribulation): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished (this is a caveat inserted to distinguish between the resurrection of the saved-FIRST resurrection and the resurrection of the lost- SECOND resurrection). This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This passage makes it clear to me that the just's judgment occurs during the tribulation, determining position of rulership during the 1000 year reign.

The church age saints judged at the beginning of the tribulation and those martyred (to be saved) throughout the tribulation. All of these shall rule and reign and their levels of reward/crowns and position comes from the pure faith works they perform during their physical lives. It is indicated that the tribulation saints will hold higher positions generally than the church age saints (the first-last/last-first parable). I believe this is indicated in Matt 19 and 20 and is in direct correlation to the earthly sacrifices made in following Christ. As the Apostles forsook their temporal ambitions and left all to follow the Lord, eventually being martyred, all believers who suffered for the name of Christ throughout the church age will also be exalted above all others. This refers to real sacrifice, not the lukewarm, fat, happy and content lifestyles we see prevalent in churches during these last days. Take a look:

Matt 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

BTW: this precludes any of the so called big name preachers, pastors, authors in these last days (all 2000 of them really). They will not hold any position of rulership during the millennium. If there at all, they will be called least in Heaven. Why do I think this? Compare these "men of God" to the disciples and first century believers who were slaughtered for Christ's sake. These charlatans have made personal gain from the Gospel, losing nothing for the Gospel or the Lord. I don't care what their names are: Graham,Macarthur, Olsteen, Rice, Hagee, whatever.

11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: There will be no one who has made merchandise of God reigning with Him. They are in egregious error but don't want to hear it. So be it.

Jesus made it abundantly clear that if we save our lives down here, we will lose them for eternity but if we lose our lives for His sake and the Gospels, we will reign with him. So IMO, only those who truly left all to follow Jesus will reign with Him.

Conversely however, the first resurrection is also the beginning of deep personal regret for most Church age believers. I believe the textbook definition of bittersweet. That is when unspeakable joy of the Lord and our personal salvation for eternity meets the deep regret of a wasted life on earth when we could have done something about it and really followed the Lord but were too busy resting on imaginary laurels of "Grace" touted repeatedly by the charlatans in their merchandise instead of abasing ourselves in humble service, being a prisoner and a fool for Christ as Paul indicated.

Yes friend, this is when the crying starts and the tears will continue to flow until after the lost are judged and in the lake of fire and our Lord Graciously wipes away our tears forever. We were redeemed to bear fruit and to bring this fruit to perfection (the great Commission). We were not redeemed to continue interest in the temporal sin-cursed world system in place here; to strive for worldly ambitions, make more money, waste time on worldly education, worldly entertainments, striving to ensure our kids succeed financially instead of Spiritually, etc. We were redeemed to give our lives to the furtherance of the Gospel. To warn people night and day of coming judgment with tears; to become fools for Christ. It will at this first resurrection when we finally realize what God had clearly told us in His Word from the foundation of the world but we ignored it at the time that it counted for us.

The reason the tears continue to flow through the lost's judgment is because of our deliberate failure to warn everyone we ever knew in our life down here. We will remember that we didn't have the nerve; didn't take the time (after all, it is baseball and football season), didn't pray and fast for them; didn't want to suffer for the name of Christ, etc... I suspect it will be emotionally devastating for nearly all of the saved as we watch the lost we knew cast one by one into the lake of fire. Oh and I suspect they will see us there too. No problem though, we can always "mouth" SORRY to them as they are cast down. Sorry that is, that we did not warn them night and day with tears. Sorry because even though we understood the terror of the Lord, we cared little for their souls when it counted because our worldly ambitions were paramount for us.

Redeem the time friends.............

 

Present? No, the future. The throne of David does not even exist in the present and it won't exist by that name again until Jesus returns to Jerusalem upon the Mt. of Olives, and (2) goes through the eastern gate and (3) takes up residence on that throne when He (4) will begin to divide the sheep from the goats. He will(5) judge the nations from THAT throne, destroy the wicked and send them to hell. Then(6) He will establish His kingdom with the surviving saints and Jews who will accept Him as Messiah upon His return.

The Tribulation period of seven years timing is given us in Daniel 9:25-27 (1 week of prophecy = 7 yrs). After John's rapture to heaven in Rev,. 4:1-2 (which prefigures the disappearance of all true believers at the rapture to come) that tribulation/Great Tribulation period will occur according to the apostle John who wrote the final book of the Bible in A.D. 96 (appox.) during the reign of Domitian.........this as noted by Ireneaus (2nd century B.C.)who learned of John's teachings from Polycarp...the man who learned from sitting at John's feet (.A.D. 90's). But this is one of those greatly important details that you missed (deliberately?)....that is, if John wrote Revelation in the A.D. 90's then the second coming of Christ could NOT have been at or near A.D. 70.

Another important detail that you missed and did not comment on: Christ's second coming will be literal, visible, and physical to all on earth. Rev. 1:7 ('and every eye shall see him). That did NOT happen in or around the A.D. 70 history. Did you even bother to look up the scripture references I gave you?

Next, the throne of David originated when David first sat upon it in I Samuel. It ceased to exist after Zedekiah in 586 B.C. and has not been available to any Jew since then. You must deal with this fact if you into to hold your position honestly. You haven't done that yet.

One last problem that you have not solved. In the promise that the lineage of David would not miss a king of David's lineage to sit on the throne...the fact is that Zedekiah was the last Jewish king to sit on the throne of Judah. There was no other (e.g. The Herod's were not Jews so they don't qualify.) SO..................if you believe that God's Word makes no mistakes but yet realize that Zedekiah WAS in fact that last Jewish king to sit on David's throne then YOU and those of your persuasion have a HUGE problem: that being that the Word of God is found in error and therefore NOT inspired by God after all. That cannot be. But....if you understand that Jesus will sit on the throne of David in the future and that His kingdom will never end then the prophecy will be fulfilled and the problem is solved.

I have debated preterists and semi-preterists a number of times through the years and I've noted that their sense of timing the prophecies of scripture is awful. I mean absolutely awful. It is as bad as anything I have ever seen among Jehovah's Witnesses or SDA's. I am 66 yrs old and I have studied the Bible for 50 yrs. especially as it relates to prophecy. Yes, the preterist/semi-preterist position is bad, very bad because most of the powerful things that are found in Revelation have never happened in human history. Most of Revelation is therefore yet future

I hope you will reconsider because you are not making sense and your time frame of biblical fulfillment to the prophecies of the kingdom isn't even close to scriptural reality.

I do not wish to carry on with this discussion if you keep trying so feebly to shoot down the truth that has been laid before you.

May the Holy Spirit help you in this matter.

 

I will let DarrellC deal with this one if he wishes to, for it is late and I am very tied. Headed home. Best wishes and goodnight.

 

deleted.

 

• Jeremiah 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

So who is sitting on the throne of David now?

"The Lord is King, lift up your voice."

You make a great mistake in thinking that the future is for Israel. It is not. Christ's church is the future and only those saved by faith in Christ.

You also make a grave mistake in interpreting Daniel 9 to refer to a seven year tribulation, and Antichrist, who is not mentioned in that prophecy. It is a wonderful prophecy about the first coming of the Messiah and you profane it by making it of someone else.

 

You are the one in error here, friend. The future is for BOTH Israel and the church, but the tribulation is 'the time of Jacob's trouble' and the 'Days of Vengeance' that Jesus spoke of will reach it's peak and come to an end at His visible, literal second coming to Jerusalem.

But in your error you still cannot solve the problem of the lack of presence of offspring of king David to sit upon his throne. Zedekiah was the last Jewish king to sit there. No Jewish man has sat upon it since then. That issue is cloudy to you. Is the Bible wrong? Were the prophets in error? Did they miss something? Of course not. If one understands that that prophecy involves the Messiah sitting upon throne of David as yet future and with Jesus sitting upon it...forever, then the problem is solved. There is no other solution to this for the prophecy of Isa. 9:6-7 demands his rule and justice over the earth. Compare that to Zech. 14: 9. It will be ON earth at a yet future day. He will touch down on the Mt. of Olives, (Zecharaiah 14:4) and rescue Jerusalem from all its enemies and He will establish His kingdom on earth for a thousand years. None of this has ever happened in world history, including that which happened in A.D. 70. The days of vengeance only BEGAN in A.D. 70, but the final fulfillment is yet to come.

You are wrong about Daniel 9 also. Antichrist is mentioned there. He is 'the prince who will come' (vs26) that will be the 'abomination of desolation' (vs 27) that will declare himself God in that awful day to come.

I do not wish to continue this discussion. Best wishes.

 

The future is of course for Church and Israel united.

Jacob's trouble was the immediate trouble of the Babylonians.

The Days of vengeance were the days of tribulation when Jerusalem and the Jewish kingdom was destroyed by the Romans.

Yes Jesus will come to Jerusalem .

• Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
• 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
• 12 ¶ Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day’s journey.

Same way, not "to the air" as the Brethren teach.

Have you not noticed that a prince did come and his people did destroy the temple and the city? If not show where the temple is now,

Oh dear. When you see the abomination of desolation, that is when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its Desolation is nigh. The desolation was on Jerusalem and Judea as it was those in the city and country who were to flee to the mountains when they saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem.