The Rapture when is it?

[Darrell C]

After the reformation, many non Anglicans were persecuted and fled to the Netherlands and were known as dissenters. The dutch were Presbytarians. and the dissenters became Presbyterians. (Quoting C B Jewson from memory in his History of Baptists in Norfolk.) When they began to return to England in 1640 they soon changed to Baptists. The baptists in the county of Norfolk were all Particular Baptists. The General Baptists came later from outside the county.
My Great Grandparents were married in a Particular Baptist Church in Norwich, St Mary's Baptist Church.

My GGF's two sisters were also members of that church but later emigrated to Brisbane, QL,Australia. They were members of a Particular Baptist Church called Jireh Chapel. The younger, Martha, b ecame the first Brisbane missionary to India, now Bangla Desh. Another member of the Jewson family from The St Mary's Baptist Church became a missionary to Calcutta, and he baptised Martha's Converts.

That's very interesting.

My Grandfather on my mother's side was a member of a sect called "the Truth," and a number of my relatives are still active in that (the ones that don't hate the sect, that is). I looked into them after I was saved because they meet in the hole, and send out missionaries (called Workers) two by two, and in general I remembered them as being very "Christian." But unfortunately they deny the Deity of Christ, so, it was not a viable faith to fellowship with.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I will respond to your errors if you post there.

"Sure, that's how it always starts, then there's running, and screaming...(Jurassic Park: the Lost World (Jeff Goldblum))"

lol

But seriously, might be easier to just post when you see the Rapture occurring, and present the Biblical Basis for it.

Makes it much easier for me, lol.

I understand. If I join in, I will be prepared to carry on the discussion.

Awesome. As I said, would love to have someone with your background in the discussion.

It's called Warlike Christians in an Age of Violence and as the title suggests it's about Christian attitudes to war. The writer is a Baptist and a University lecturer in geography and politics, and a colleague of my daughter who gave me the book as a Christmas present. When I've finished the review I will post it on my blog and link to it here.

Interesting. Can I guess he is against Christians being "for" war? Or does he give it a balanced criticism?


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But seriously, might be easier to just post when you see the Rapture occurring, and present the Biblical Basis for it.

Post #43.

 

[Darrell C]

Your application is all wrong. Just as lightning lights up the entire sky from the east to the west, so shall the of the Son of man be in his day, His PRESENCE will be EVERYWHERE.

Oh, so coming quickly could not possibly be seen in the Son of Man coming, lol?

And it won't be visible to the eye [Luke 17:20-21],

So its an invisible return, is that it?


Luke 17:20-21
King James Version (KJV)

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Well, can I suggest to you that in view is the Kingdom of God, not the return of Christ?

He does transition to speaking of His Return, but the question asked is in regards to the Kingdom of God, which in the mind of the First Century Jew, and within the framework of the revelation available to them (specifically the Promise of the Restored Kingdom), would have been a physical Kingdom where the Christ they expected would establish His Throne, and from henceforth not fail to have son reigning (the everlasting throne in the mind of the First Century Jew who had not yet had the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed to them).

Keep reading...


22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


So the question, "When will the Kingdom of God come," and His response...there is that which must take place first, but, when I come, it will be like the lightning.

Was Satan's "presence everywhere" when this...


Luke 10:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


...took place?

Now,. more to the point, that you specifically deny the Return of Christ, even though it is associated with the prophecies you apply to First Century events...

...makes the very point I raised.

Its time to put Christ back into your eschatology, my friend.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

we have not come to a mount that might be touched [Hebrews 12:18].

Not relevant to Christ's Return or the Rapture.

The Writer compares the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant.

26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming [PRESENCE] of the Son of man.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

Not sure why the presence of Christ at His Return might seem to you to support your view that the Tribulation occurred in the First Century.

It actually denies such a view because the one thing I have repeatedly pointed out to you is that His Presence...

...is lacking.

Christ will return immediately after the Tribulation. That is in every account of the Tribulation...His coming and presence.

Which is not said in regards to the Rapture, where we go to be with Him.

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them:
24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

Obviously speaking about the internal aspect of salvation, not the physical Return of Christ.

The notion that Christ's Return is a spiritual event only is an example of what I said, you guys spiritualize the meaning out of Prophecy, and impose a view that simply does not conform to how Prophecy has always been fulfilled.

Christ was prophesied to come, and He came. He is prophesied to come again...

...and He will come.

And it will be as He teaches it, after the Tribulation, and you have no such event in the First Century.

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

Not relevant.

Christ foretells the Tribulation and His Return after, and this is consistent with God's last Word on the subject:



Revelation 19:11-16
King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

Again, not relevant.

And the simple point I can make here is that...

...the earth is not filled with the Knowledge of the Glory of Jehovah.

If you think so, you must live in a very good neighborhood.

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

How about this one...


Zechariah 14
King James Version (KJV)

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


This is how the Angels said He would return:


Acts 1:10-11
King James Version (KJV)

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Its going to happen, and it will happen quickly.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Post #43.

Sorry Martin, didn't see that one, I will address it when I have more time (I have a life too, lol, and a wife who is saying "Dinner is ready...").

I will say that this view also depends on nullifying Prophecy, because we cannot have the Rapture "immediately before" the Lord's Return because what we then have to nullify is the Sheep and Goat Judgment, and, we have no physical believers left to populate the Millennial Kingdom.

Oh, sorry, you nullify that prophecy as well...



See you at the next appointed time.


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

Well, can I suggest to you that in view is the Kingdom of God, not the return of Christ?

The two are the same. Post 45:

"The trifold declaration of scripture is “this generation” is that of the 1st century, contemporary with Christ and the apostles:

Matthew:
28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16
33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

Mark:
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9
29 even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

Luke:
27 But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Lk 9
31 Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

The very simple hermeneutic of comparing scriptures plainly shows the synonomy of 'some will not taste of death', and, 'this generation will not pass away', and the synonomy of 'His coming,' and, 'the coming of the kingdom'."

 

[Iconoclast]

New to Baptist Board, so I just want to get an idea of what the majority opinion is here, on the timing of the rapture.

The last day...as per jn6

 

[David Kent]

Well, sadly Eschatology has taken a back seat for a great many great men of God, who's ministries were fantastic but they simply did not get involved in end times issues.

Fantastic = fantasies. Spurgeon said he was called to preach the gospel and not to preach on prophecies.

 

[David Kent]

The last day...as per jn6

That is the only date given. also John 11.

• John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[David Kent]

From my perspective, our Soteriology is dependent on a sound Eschatology, and given the amount of Prophecy throughout Scripture, I would think it would be given more attention than it often does. But that is just my view. I don't look down on those who aren't interested in it.

That is the problem I don't see your Eschatology as sound.

 

[David Kent]

That's a little better, but me, I'll stick with Biblically accurate.

Pre-Trib Pre-mil.

Pre tribulation is not accurate. It is a modern invention amongst protestants from about 1825.

 

[David Kent]

That's very interesting.

My Grandfather on my mother's side was a member of a sect called "the Truth," and a number of my relatives are still active in that (the ones that don't hate the sect, that is). I looked into them after I was saved because they meet in the hole, and send out missionaries (called Workers) two by two, and in general I remembered them as being very "Christian." But unfortunately they deny the Deity of Christ, so, it was not a viable faith to fellowship with.

That sounds like The Sect Without a Name aka the Two by Twos, or Cooneyites, I did read some articles about them about a year or so ago, but can't remember much about them.

 

[Calypsis4]

That is the only date given. also John 11.

• John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

But that day has not happened.

 

[Calypsis4]

kyredneck,

"The trifold declaration of scripture is “this generation” is that of the 1st century, contemporary with Christ and the apostles:

An AOL Huffpost headline recently said: Loss of American jobs began under this US president.

Since the date was recent would you conclude that it is Trump? If you did you would be wrong. So which president is the 'guilty' party in the matter of job loss? Which one is 'this president' being referred to? Obama? Bush? Clinton? Bush Sr.? Reagan? Carter? One has to dig to find out which one, something you failed to do as it concerns 'this generation' mentioned by Jesus thrice.

In any consideration of scripture we must understand that Jesus and the writers of scripture must be allowed to use all the grammatical expressions that we use in our time. Example: 'in this hour in which we live,'...is it this LITERAL hour or is it 'this month', 'this year' or 'this period' of time? One can only know by considering the full scope of what the writer says. For us, it is considering all the other scriptures which deal with the subject at hand. You haven't done that.

Matthew:
28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

Both the apostle Paul and John saw the coming of Jesus and wrote about it in the books they wrote. Those are the men we know about. There may have been others we don't know about.

33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.

He was 'nigh' but since the Jews rejected Jesus the kingdom was postponed. Jesus said so in...

Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall betaken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

That 'nation' (people) was and is the church, the bride of Christ. The Jews, however, are still experiencing the 'days of vengeance' and will continue to experience that awful time until Christ's visible second coming.

The Jews did not repent when the days of vengeance was unleashed by God upon them in A.D. 70. There was no second coming, no Antichrist, no mark of the beast on the right hand nor forehead, no vials, no trumpet judgments, no seven seals, no three woes, and no Armageddon.

John wrote the Revelation in approx. A.D. 96 and wrote of the coming apocalypse which was yet future and is still yet future. According to at least one of the church fathers of the second century, John lived and wrote Revelation during the time of the Roman emperor, Domitian who reigned during the A.D. 90's. That makes the 2nd coming of Christ in or around A.D. 70 impossible.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

Already dealt with above. Since you won't even consider that all grammatical expressions of meaning must be considered in any scripture written by authors of the N.T. it has led you into serious error.

John made it plain in Rev. 1:7 The whole world will visibly see Jesus at his coming. Even the wicked pharisees will see him coming from their viewpoint in hell fire. They will see him just as the rich man (in Jesus story of the rich man and Lazarus) saw Lazarus in Abrahams bosom. But 'every eye' did NOT see Jesus coming in A.D. 70 or any other time since then. Therefore the position you are promoting is an error and can rightly be called 'heresy'.

 

[David Kent]

But that day has not happened.

How perceptive you are.

 

[David Kent]

Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall betaken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Of course the kingdom was given to the church, so no future kingdom for the Jews outside the church. The kingdom was taken from the Jews so there is no future kingdom for them.

 

[Calypsis4]

Of course the kingdom was given to the church, so no future kingdom for the Jews outside the church. The kingdom was taken from the Jews so there is no future kingdom for them.

Wrong:
Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The Lord Jesus Christ will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem and rule over Israel and the rest of the world for a thousand years. The Abrahamic Covenant is still applicable to the nation of Israel and is the biggest reason why that nation/state continues since the miracle of the U..N resolution, May 14, 1948 in the regathering of Israel and the reason they continue to defeat their enemies no matter how large or how powerful they are.

What God said in Genesis, "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" is still in effect to this day. If one could go to the edge of hell and talk to Pharaoh, Caesar, Grand inquisitor Torqemada, the Czars of Russia, Hitler, or Yassar Arafat, they would all grimly agree that it is still true.

 

[Calypsis4]

How perceptive you are.

But do you and your like-minded comrades get the point?

 

[David Kent]

Wrong:
Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The Lord Jesus Christ will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem and rule over Israel and the rest of the world for a thousand years. The Abrahamic Covenant is still applicable to the nation of Israel and is the biggest reason why that nation/state continues since the miracle of the U..N resolution, May 14, 1948 in the regathering of Israel and the reason they continue to defeat their enemies no matter how large or how powerful they are.

What God said in Genesis, "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" is still in effect to this day. If one could go to the edge of hell and talk to Pharaoh, Caesar, Grand inquisitor Torqemada, the Czars of Russia, Hitler, or Yassar Arafat, they would all grimly agree that it is still true.

• 33:17 “For thus says the Lord: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’”

So who is sitting on David's throne at present?